Honda/Audi

The Oily Bits S1 Specific Topics
41

I know this isn’t directed at me, but I will throw my 2p’s worth in anyway, as I spent a fair bit of time researching this.

I think the main reason people go for the 6 speed box is because the Honda has got a 6 speed and lets be honest most modern cars now have 6 speed boxs, so it is seen as the thing to have.

My personal opinion is that because with a turbo you have loads of low down grunt and you aren’t revving as high as the Honda’s (my redline is 7,800rpm) you don’t need to keep changing gear. Turbo engines like pushing a bigger gear.

Also ratio selection, there are a few different 6 speed boxes, but there must be about twenty different types of 5 speed. Now as long as you get the box with the 1st gear you want as this is part of the main shaft, all of the rest of the gears are simply splined onto the shaft, so you can pretty much have what you want ratio’s wise as you can mix and match gears from different boxs, plus there are about 6 different final drives. I am still learning here, but am in the process of putting together what I think will be a good race box, with a long, usable 1st gear etc. I’m not sure you can do this to the 6 speed boxes, plus there isn’t the selection of ratios available.

Three companies also do 6 speed gearkits to fit inside the 5 speed gearbox, both synchro and dog versions are available with loads of ratios.

Another plus of the 5 speed is cost and availability, they can be had for about �150 and they are bloody everywhere as they were used in so many different cars. The 6 speed boxes can fetch from about �300 - �500

On the plus side for the 6 speed, I have heard it is stronger. The design of it is totally different as it is a three rail gearbox as opposed to a two rail for the 5 speed, so it is probably nicer to use etc etc.

I reckon if you went for a monster power audi, that used a large turbo that you needed to keep the revs up to keep in the zone, then the 6 speed may be a better option.

Another factor is the drive shaft angles. The 5 speed box is narrower across the dif flanges, therefore the shafts required for a 5 speed are both olonger than for the 6 speed. This obviously makes the angles of the drive shafts less, and that can only be a good thing.

Sean…

42

I know this is out of the blue,

but what about the DSG box?


is this too heavy or complex to be a useful alternative?



Super info btw, Sean. Makes the 5 speed box sound v compelling.

43

I would have to agree… I wanted a six speeder because I thought it might be nice!
In reality though 1st gear is a waste of time as its just too low and mine would pull a wider set of ratios whilst holding the boost up no probs…
The other car we are building is going to be 5 speed for all the above reasons…

44

Ahhhh the DSG box. Well my obsession with paddle shift boxes is well known here. lol, so yes I did look into the DSG box in some detail.

However the upsides of super blingness, uber fast changes etc etc are massivly outweighed by many many downsides. These being:

Its bloody heavy, weighing in at 93KG!!!

Its bloody expensive, I found one breaker that had one and he wanted 3k for it, and that was after a long search.

It is masivly complicated, it has its own ECU, that talks via a CAN bus to the engine ECU and takes readings from everywhere! Even with my now legendry soldering abilitys I don’t think I could make it talk to my Emerald. lol

The road software is not what you want either as it isn’t agressive enough for racing and isn’t really any good at standing starts. However VW Motorsport do a race version of the ECU and I got hold of a copy of the Motorsport build manual and spoke to a race team running one in a Seat Leon. They said the box was ace, but very complicated, they had several small glitches with it, all sorted now mind.

The other thing is it isn’t very strong. The first page of the motorsport book states it is only rated to 250lb/ft.

The final straw is the motorsport ECU is very hard to get hold of as at the moment they are only supplying them in a car, so to speak and god knows how much one costs to buy, even if you could buy one.

So in short, no i’m not using the DSG box!!

45

Thanks Sean. Very interesting to read your posts regarding weights and the like. I am now very tempted to follow you down the audi route …

46

Cheers, Sean.

Your posts are fantastically informative and fun to read.
You’re just BURSTING with passion man!


Looking forward to many more installments.

47

Cheers guys. I guess I do my research before finally deciding on stuff, I quite like the research bit actually.

48

In reply to Bernard, yeah hopefully people won’t rule out the Audi on weight grounds.

The 6 speed box is about 15 kg’s heavier than the 5 speed and the 6 speeders flywheel and clutch adds about another 20kg’s as its one of those dual mass things, I could not believe how heavy it was when I unbolted it.

Sean…

Little bit pessimistic there Sean. The 6 speed is 11 kg heavier than the 5 speed. The standard dual mass flywheel and clutch is criminally heavy at 14.5 kg and light versions are expensive. You can get a nice lightened clutch and flywheel for the 5 speed that weighs about 6 kg.

As Sean says, you don’t need a 6 speed in such a light car when you have turbo torque. There are about 65 variations of the 5 speed and only a few have decent ratio’s for the Elise.

Bernard

49

What do you measure the 6 speed in at Bernard? I have one in my garage that I weighed at 51kg’s and my 5 speed weighed 36kg’s???

I was doing the flywheel and clutch from memory and in my head it felt heavy as hell. lol

50

What do you measure the 6 speed in at Bernard? I have one in my garage that I weighed at 51kg’s and my 5 speed weighed 36kg’s???

I was doing the flywheel and clutch from memory and in my head it felt heavy as hell. lol

The 5 speed I measured was 39.5 kg, there are loads of flavours though. They seem to bring out a new one every week. The one I have in the shed has the nice ratio’s :slight_smile: The 6 speed was 50.

Isn’t it nice to have a chat on here without SimonE slagging the alternative engines off all the time ?

When are you taking it for a RR session then ?

Bernard

51

Totally agree with all sean has posted regarding the reasons for choosing the 5 speed over the 6. I also looked into the DSG box but it fell at the first hurdle due to known failures when upping the power and torque.

At least with an Audi engine in place when the racing teams have perfected the DSG set up it could always be an option in the future.

In the mean time a company called ikeya (not sure of the spelling and not the furnature place) make a sequential adaptor for the H pattern gearbox similar to the one available for the audi gearbox. Gives sequential style shifts up and down the box for very little money !!

My car now is fully up and running and just shaking down the little post build gremlins - thankfully not many so far.

Just for the records my gbox (5 speed) weighed in at 36.5…when my 6 speed Gbox was out of my golf tdi it was so heavy and large that it took three of us to manouver it - but it can take serious amounts of torque from the high powered diesels…

52

The 6 speed box is about 15 kg’s heavier than the 5 speed and the 6 speeders flywheel and clutch adds about another 20kg’s as its one of those dual mass things

So going for a 5spd can save me 20-35kg ?! Bernard !!



I’d probably prefer it on track too, often finding myself needing to change gear mid-corner.

53

Yeah baby yeah!!!

54

A couple of things to consider when going from 6 speed to 5 5 speed.

  1. You will need a new set of drive shafts
  2. The gear linkage on the 5 speed is totally different, so that would have to change as well.

Sean…

55

I’d probably prefer it on track too, often finding myself needing to change gear mid-corner.

That was an important factor (but not the only one) for me, when deciding which conversion to go for 3 years ago. Russ had driven a couple in the Mid Engined Races, & said the same about having to constantly change gear.

56

I think people really do under estimate how important gearing is in a track car and getting it right can make soooo much difference.

Just look at my K series this year when the Quaife was on and working correctly, it was bloody awesome and deffo worth 50 BHP. With a standard gearbox it was just plain slow.

I guess you Honda boys, both SC and NA also need quite a close ratio box??? Whats the opinion here??

I think the audi will be better with a longer box with bigger gaps between the gears.

Whats everyones opinion???

57

Been driving a Civic Type R all week, and it’s been great fun. You have to litterally hit the rev limiter on the road car to keep it in the VTEC zone between changes which is an issue when your carrying the weight of the road car but not an issue in the Light weight Lotus…BUT what a gem of a gearbox, and one of the best gear change actions i have had the pleasure of using…Just a pity that someone can’t transpose this into the Lotus yet as it would be sublime…

I think that the close ratio set up is definitely suited perfectly for the Honda engine which is great if you have one of the better gear linkage set ups but probably so good if not.

I drive a manual Audi/VW as my usual daily drive and the gear change is far from race like, more like an industrial arrangement. However some of this seems to have been lost in translation into the Lotus…As far as gear ratios go it doesn’t seem to matter what gear your in as it just pulls through any drivers poor gear selections…

58

I guess you Honda boys, both SC and NA also need quite a close ratio box??? Whats the opinion here??

Personally, I prefer the UK ratios over the JDM ratios, as 3 to 5 are longer, hence mid corner up changes not required. But of course, I ain’t a racing driver

59

… But of course, I ain’t a racing driver

Yeah, but that’s only through choice Mr P, not lack of ability.

60

Yeah, but that’s only through choice Mr P, not ability.

No choice I’m afraid - reality of lack of cash & ability, in equal measures.