BTW, I’d have bet you and Tut were the same generation…
BTW, I’d have bet you and Tut were the same generation…
\
He’s still older than me
By the way, I saw Tut’s JDM power output at the Dastek RR where I went to make a run so I have a baseline.
In that RR, my 210BHP = 205BHP. Same shape, same everything so just need to apply a mutiplying factor.
Tut’s JDM was there 197BHP as it came, stock. He had it unichipped and it was finally 208BHP. They could get no more.
So, 208BHP Vs 205 BHP there, hmmm, no that different.Was going to mention this after I could have the plots, but they will take a while until they have their new software version. The way it is, they can only plot to 8K. They could plot to 8.5K if they had measured me ABOVE 8.5K, but I had the limiter set at 8.5K, so will need the next version to show to 8.4
As it was, let me explain: the comparison was very favourable for the Honda below 5K, from then the K was on top and then from 8 to 7.5 to 8K the Honda was better.
Tut’s car felt as strong as they come, compared favourably with Ian Wilson’s at the Ring (actually outside), etc, etc.
He feels very happy but could NOT, before the unichip outdrag the Yota powered Elises at KH’s uphill straight.
And ah, yes, Tut also had to pay extra for a remapping and RR time.So, for me, Honda being far superior? I give you that it’s a better designed engine (here I’m sure Simon will jump at me) but at he end it’s a newer design, so fair enough. But some people are not willing to put up with the extra weight, and not willing to pay 10K.
I know some people actually like it when when the VTEC kicks in, and I could see there was a big peak at that point explaining that, but then you can see the torque decreasing.
I’m quite surprised at some of these results from a Honda car. I’m not going to doubt them if they were shown on a dyno but something must have been wrong somewhere.
My car currently has a UK engine with ~200bhp on a standardish map although I have a new ECU sitting on the passenger seat with a remap on it which has shown another 20bhp on an identical engine but more of that later. Unlike Tut, I haven�t paid for the re-mapped ECU.
I came across Hyla Breeze at Bruntingthorpe when I very first had the engine in. He was in an S2 Exige running 48’s and I was in mine running Toyo’s with completely fooked LSS shocks (the car was bouncing around like mad). He came past me on a cool down lap before I had realised who it was and set up chase. I was past him within a couple of corners and soon disappeared into the distance and he was really, really trying to keep up with me. I’m not going to profess I beat him through being quicker through the corners, I simply had much greater acceleration. Later in the day I was out in the Maidstone demo car with the latest map and Nitrons, 38’s etc and it was way way quicker than my car so would have been light years ahead of the Yota Mota.
I shouldn�t really compare acceleration on the track because it really annoys me when other people do it. Its s so easy to mistake corner exit speed with power. If I had a pound for every time I have heard someone moan about not having as much power as everyone else when really all they need to do is improve their corner exit speed�
On the power front a UK engine can get almost 220 when mapped properly and JDM�s have seen considerably more. Where it really nails a K though is with the spread of power, the torque and the better gear ratios. Have a look here SELOC Forums and here SELOC Forums . One big misconception about the Honda is the Vtec point. Mine engages at about 4,700 and there is NO noticeable kick, you only notice a slight increase in noise. Russ, Pesky and IDG have all driven it and I�m sure they will back this up. The whole point of the Vtec is to combine drivability with outright power, the only reason that some Vtec systems give you a kick in the back is because the marketing people think that this makes the cars feel faster and gives them a selling point. Unlike a K you don�t have to scream it to 8K rpm to make rapid progress because spread of power is so good.
Enough pro-Honda ramblings but needless to say IMHO it IS a far superior engine.
Also think about this:
Cost to purchase a second hand engine/gearbox, Honda - ~�2,500 (200bhp, six speed gearbox) or VHPD - ~�3,500 (190bhp, 5 speed gearbox). Then you spend �3,500 on upgrades and with the Rover you go to Simon E and he gives you 210bhp and with the Honda you go to Simon S and he gives you 300bhp (supercharger). Now which is the better value for money?
Agree with teh VTEC marketing kick. You took the sensible approach and moved it to before it gives a kick. I would have done the same.
Now, the costs, I think you made a slight miscalculation by ommitting the other �7500 to have the Honda installed.
And thinking that we need to buy a VHPD. It’s already there.
So it would be �10K for the Honda or �3K for a rebuild. You’re then with a base starting point.
Hmm, better VFM then? K.
From there you can spend �3.5K for a Honda supercharger or (well, there is no cheap supercharger way for the K) go 2L for about �4K and possibly get about 260BHP
But if Honda or supercharged, the extra horses will need to pull a heavier vehicle.
Complicated.
You know what? let me chase you around a track next time, I’ll be happy with that.
You are very right, I have intentionally left out the conversion cost (I paid much less than 7.5K for mine) but you also have to consider the costs of removing and re-fitting the K. On top of that you need to consider that if you start with an Exige you can claw back 3.5K by selling it and you also need to factor in an Emerald for the VHPD. So its not simple at all.
I think that running costs need to be thought about too and so far, after 9000 miles my Honda has cost me �40 in oil and �10 for an oil filter and if anything breaks then I still have plenty of warrenty left on it. Worst case scenario is that it goes bang after the first year and I fork out for another second hand engine at �2K.
Looking forward to some on track comparisons though, should be lots of fun. We should get them both on the scales too, that would be interesting.
The main problem for the K series is that the k20 is up and running now so the goal posts are moving rapidly - apart from the normal 200bhp tuned k verus 200+ bhp k20 (a little more if JDM) you now have to factor in that unopened UK spec K20s are doing 240bhp in the back of elises NASP and Scruffy has charged K20s (again unopened) on the evil side of 300bhp.
I have seen a UK spec K20 with just cams and ITBs on a bench dyno kicking out 270bhp @ 8000rpm. Lots more to be got once you get more adventurous (though reliability becomes an issue of course like with any fettled engine)
As for money well if you own a lotus you must have more money than sense anyway but it is possible to get it done (on paper) for much less money but of course it takes ages to sort out (bitter experience).
Russ, Pesky and IDG have all driven it and I�m sure they will back this up.
I can, it’s fab, thanks again!
ian
I could not tell it was a VTEC motor, after mine which comes in likes a turbo. I now have borrowed Dads uk ECU whilst mine is being fiddled with, and mine felt like it had no VTEC! But it was bloody quick I can tell you.
Discuss: if the VTEC is just there to improve fuel economy, then for mainly track work/racing/whatever, is it not better to have the full beans from zero revs?
I’ve heard that the VTEC “kick” is a marketing exercise to make you know you’re in “high power mode” OYSWIM…
Basically if you get it changing exactly where the 2 torque curves coincide then you will feel nothing
The old toyota’s had T-VIS (Toyota Varibale Induction System) which opened more inlet ports in the plunum at 4700 revs, if you changed this you’d feel it, but otherwise it just changed the noise.
Just to clear up a couple of points. The little comparison Tut and I did at the Ring was done with Tut following behind me - so a little bit of slip streaming would have been occuring. Secondly my engine has a new manifold but old map, so it’s a little down on power.
Talking about the 111R, at the first Sprint at North Weald this year Mark Fullalove was there with one. I beat him by a decent margin. No one can deny that Mark is not handy behind the wheel.
Discuss: if the VTEC is just there to improve fuel economy, then for mainly track work/racing/whatever, is it not better to have the full beans from zero revs?
Its not really there to improve fuel economy, just drivability. To acheive good top end power you tend to fit lairy cams which makes the lower ranges a bit unpleasant. What the Vtec does is give you the best of both worlds. People who race Vtec motors often remove the vtec as its of no real use but I don’t personally see the point in changing it if it works so well and doesn’t cause problems.
Certainly nice if you drive it too the track.
Ian
People who race Vtec motors often remove the vtec as its of no real use but I don’t personally see the point in changing it if it works so well and doesn’t cause problems.
All add’s weight and is more stuff to go wrong so why bother if it’s just a race car that’ll only ever live in the VTEC zone
Also isn’t it just the exhaust cam? Or is it both?
It’s both on the variant of the K20a family we use (k20a and k20a2). There are other variants like the k20a3 that are very much geared for economy and which have a different implementation of iVTEC.
People who race Vtec motors often remove the vtec as its of no real use but I don’t personally see the point in changing it if it works so well and doesn’t cause problems.
All add’s weight and is more stuff to go wrong so why bother if it’s just a race car that’ll only ever live in the VTEC zone
Also isn’t it just the exhaust cam? Or is it both?
Vtec systems don’t go wrong. Honda have some statistic about how they havn’t had a single warrenty claim on a Vtec system. Even on race cars there are times when you are off the cam, when caught in traffic etc and having the drivability would really help.
there’s another shade of grey in this cost comparison argument…
If I want to do most of the donkey work myself, like Uldis, to save money… then with the original VHPD I can do it… and the job will come to about �4k incl Emerald ? yeh ?
But with the Honda I can’t really do it myself because everyone doing it only does it as a turn-key and as far as I have heard this amounts to about �10k - Pesky questions this but it is the price that everyone i know has had to pay.
I’m not sure we could get �3k for selling a used VHPD these days could we ?? but if we could/can then that makes the Honda �7k and i didn’t get my hands dirty… I can buy a lot of soap for �3k LOL…
Anyway, I think its a case of pays yer cash makes yer choice… everyone will make their own mind up.
The power figures for the Rover and Honda appear similair. Does anyone have performance figures for the modified cars, e.g 0-100 and 60-120 including weight of car and gearing (gearbox/wheels)?
Simon S has experience of using both engines. Rover 164lb/ft & 240bhp? I appreciate the debate is about cost and reliability, but comparative lap times may address the power curve debate.
Vtec systems don’t go wrong. Honda have some statistic about how they havn’t had a single warrenty claim on a Vtec system. Even on race cars there are times when you are off the cam, when caught in traffic etc and having the drivability would really help.
I’ve heard that abouit VTEC’s too, never had a single one go wrong… Impressive stuff!
But if you’re racing and taking the engine apart quite often then it’s more to take apart too? I personally can see the point in dropping the VTEC if it’s an out and out racer… And hopefully you’ll be good enough to not get caught up in too much traffic… Hopefully
As for the Rodder vs. Honduh, I wonder if a 6 speed transmission with decent grear ratios would help? Just pure speculation of course
Vtec systems don’t go wrong. Honda have some statistic about how they havn’t had a single warrenty claim on a Vtec system. Even on race cars there are times when you are off the cam, when caught in traffic etc and having the drivability would really help.
I’ve heard that abouit VTEC’s too, never had a single one go wrong… Impressive stuff!
But if you’re racing and taking the engine apart quite often then it’s more to take apart too? I personally can see the point in dropping the VTEC if it’s an out and out racer… And hopefully you’ll be good enough to not get caught up in too much traffic… Hopefully
As for the Rodder vs. Honduh, I wonder if a 6 speed transmission with decent grear ratios would help? Just pure speculation of course
I can see the logic in removing the Vtec for racing but…If you are racing and get stuck in an incident, somebody spins in front of you or something, its so important to be able to get back on the throttle quickly and have some power there to stop loosing any positions.
A good 6-speed box would make a big difference to the Rover. Watching Barrie and Gav’s car charging up the start finish straight at Donington I was quite impressed. Their 6-speed sequential flat shift box has got to be a factor there. It was definately interesting to see how much faster it was that Matt’s Audi car which has, in theory, got another 60bhp and loads more torque.
I’ve heard that the VTEC “kick” is a marketing exercise to make you know you’re in “high power mode” OYSWIM…
I think you are not far off the truth there, if have seen k20 maps were the ivet kicks in at 3000rpm if the load is high enough which just slaughters power about 1500 rpm later which then picks up about 1000 rpm after that.
The shitvic crowd love to speak of “hitting vtec” etc etc like its some magical power shot.
The iVTEC is good for economy, emmisions and noise levels etc and its much easier to produce a nice pussy cat of a car (240bhp and sewing machine tickover @ 700rpm) even though you do have a fairly extreme cam.
I leave cam change until 6300 which seems to produce a nice smooth curve (http://elise-r.co.uk/mambo/images/stories/johnboy.jpg) but scuffers pulls it in lower and with some careful mapping produces a good result.
