Where have all the King K Engines gone?

The Oily Bits S1 Specific Topics
122

Simon,

“THERE WERE NO UPRATED BEARINGS DONE FOR 42MM BEARINGS, BY ROVER CERTAINLY, OR ANYONE ELSE THAT I AM AWARE OF.”

My understanding is that a limited run of AS16 bearings at 42mm were produced for the VVC engined rally cars which I am told were 1600cc, a few sets of these (like gold dust) came my way from Simon Thornley. Just because you are ignorant of their existance it doesn’t mean that they were not available. Some also went to Mark Bishop, Mike Bees and a handful of others with 1600/42mm bearing size. As far as I know they are running happily with these in place.

It wouldn’t surprise me if Rover were to deny their existance, it may be that since the bearings were evidentally not a stock production part that they could possibly fall foul of homologation rules…

"AND IF YOU ARE SO CERTAIN OF WHAT STEVE THINKS ABOUT ME "

Oh I know exactly what Steve Smith thinks of you, but it is not suitable for posting here. I have already spoken with Steve at length, he will be making a response in writing on signed letterhead regarding his original posting here, watch this space, he was very candid, he mentioned that you had texted him and mailed him… getting nervous Simon?

Following the posting here I will not be the only one who knows…

I suspect that anyone watching my posts will be in for a surprise or two.

Incidentally have you pointed your ‘watchers’ at the previous threads where you were forced into making humliating apologies to all and sundry and the many statments from persons refuting your claims?

You remember… the debacle about the frequency of my visits to Steve, disproven by a copy of an invoice issued to me during the period you claimed I had not taken cranksets to him (I have more available) and further discredited by a statement fron Steve himself.

The comments purported to have come from Simon Thornley (posting from him to show it was nonsense),

The comments purported to have come from Fred Hadley (emails from him showing it was nonsense).

The nonsense about the ring hook-up on the Pistal piston, disproven by a statement from Fred Hadley…

The erroneous measurement conversions posted by you about the bore ovality on a Scholar block which showed your ignorance of basic measurements and were shown to be nonsense…

The list goes on… I’m surprised that anyone will take you seriously following those massive blows to your credibility, but I suppose if you pay someone enough… they will do anything.

Perhaps I should have a team of trick-cyclists standing by watching posts… they would have a field day.

I have had no negative feedback from any owners about oil consumption with the U-flex rings, in fact two have stated that the oil consumption is the best that it has ever been. U-flex rings are widely known and used. If I had received any negative feedback, I would have taken it up with Scholar rather than beating my breast about it on here, just as I did when the old three piece type ring exhibited problems.

You say that you are fed up with being called a liar.

Your statement that I had not taken any cranksets to VF for four years was incorrect. I pointed out that it was incorrect a number of times as succintly as possible, yet you persisted in repeating the claim and further tried to use Steve Smith to back it up. The sole purpose of this claim was to try to damage my business activities.

I posted a copy of an invoice (one of several) from the period in dispute showing that I had in fact taken cranksets there at that time. Anyone can make a mistake Simon, but after this mistake is pointed out several times and yet the false claim is repeated and disproven you are only left with one way to describe the actions…

Steve Smith’s statment also discredited your claim that he passed you information about the frequency of my visits, it also discrdited your claim about Steve Butts’s introduction to Steve Smith and some of the details surrounding the development of the heavy metalled crank.

You have made some bad mistakes and terrible errors of judgement… Get over it

Dave

124

Simon,

Steve 'phoned me…twice, so I expect he wasn’t too upset.

David Wards engine was 245BHP and over 160lb/ft, I doubt that many 1 litre engines will be making that sort of output or having to cope with the same rod loadings. Especially with partly blocked sump pickups.

You can ask who you like about the 42mm AS16 bearings, it really doesn’t matter to me, I have held them in my hand, you never will. There are a number of people who have gratefully received them from Simon Thornley, not just me, it was they who put me on to Simon about the possibility of some more. And if AS15 bearings are so good, why were the AS16 ones developed for us in the TF160 and subsequently adopted for all 1800s?

Errr… I run VP2s with no clearances?, what utter drivel. and what would that have to do with it? With no bearing clearance the engine simply wouldn’t turn, all my engines are tested for turning torque both with the head fitted and with a torque plate prior to head fitting.

Boy, you like to make it up as you go along don’t you. There you go supposing that you know things about my business. In the last 5 years I have supplied 4 or 5 sets of VP2 bearings to customers mostly at their own request and in most cases as direct replacements for their existing VP2 bearings. Not that it is any of your business.

Disinformation like that is typical of the underhand tactics you employ.

Dave

126

Simon,

You are starting to sound like a 4th former.

You have no reply to my statements about the VF debacle and yet you say that you dont like to be called a liar.

In the past year I have already had 9 failed engines in from other builders, some with small failures, others more catstrophic. Just today I finished building an engine for someone who had a catastrophic failure at low mileage.

As with 90% of my customers the owner came to see the whole build process, nothing is hidden, every meticulous step is followed and documented, all the modifications I make to the block and head to improve reliability are noted. Without exception they go away happy with the quality of the work. It was during his build that David Ward confided the details to me about your 'phone calls.

All of these engines have now been put right and are running happily, I just dont run around trying to dig up dirt like some disenchanted schoolboy or bitchy obsessive. Nor do I try to discredit anyone with misleading statements.

let me know how many eyes Steve Smith blacks when you see him.

Get a life.

Dave

127

For me guys, this is getting way too personal and really has got fook all to do with the rest of us … I dont understand why you keep posting, all it takes is for one of you to stop posting/responding to the other and its over ! Its a little strange and will result in nothing positive at all, it will also put you under massive pressure/stress to deliver on the promises/statements made here. If either of you have an engine that fails now you will be slaughtered by the other (even if the offending item was nothing to do with you). Why do this to yourselves ?

Like Jerry Springer guys, it was fun for a while …

128

I belong to a number of BBS and interest lists and have done so for many years (10 or so in some cases)

Pretty much 99% of my postings there are in response to questions from people and my answers are drawn from my own experience of the subject matter. It is rare (1 post in 500) that I start a thread. On pretty much all of these I very very rarely get into any sort of argument or even disagreement, any differences of opinion are normally worked out in a sane and rational manner. Occassionally a troll will arise and disrupt proceedings, but their tenure is usually short lived due to presuure from the sensible majority or application of the adage ‘do not feed the trolls’.

On Exiges I have been forced to defend myself against malicious postings, many of them proven to be unfounded and erroneous as you have no doubt witnessed for yourselves.

If they are allowed to continue, then I will be forced to do so too.

Quite often attacks have been made on third parties or claims have been made about thrid parties who one way or another have no access or right of reply, this is clearly wrong and I feel duty bound to reply by proxy if I believe any of the crticism levelled or remarks attributed to them are unfair or wrong. You have seen the result of these actions.

It is a pity that the same old garbage has been raked over once again even though it has already been fully aired here many times before. From my point of view it is necessary that these mischeivous amd malicious postings are responded to so that any casual reader of the thread who has not seen the prior runs will not be misled.

While the BBS allows freedom of speech I believe that it is right and proper, pain in the arse though it may be.

Dave

129
  • the least of my engines [and these are hydraulic tappet engines I am talking about] matches any na honda or betters it for power and torque

http://www.dyno-plot.co.uk/dyno/dynoplot/id%3D119_185%26sort%3Drec%26but_sea%3Dqs%26sea_simple%3Dhonda/index.htm

wrong.I belive uldis is creeping up but he still has a fair way to go.

130

That’s not really a fair comparison. The base honda conversion with remap is not the same as what you have posted.

That particular engine is not to my knowledge in an elise and has a number of other addons - in an elise that would probably cost more than the standard conversion with a supercharger.

But I take your point re additional power that can be wrung out of the honda.

131

The debate about who’s engine makes more power wil rage and rage, a well sorted K on hydraulic or VHPD cams will be on the same page as a natasp Honda in relatively stock trim out of the box.

It will be pretty much impossible to separate them as cars that once made 200BHP are returned to the RR repeatedly with new manifolds that tweak the very top of the power curve to squeeze out some headline BHP at the expense of the mid range. Such is the nature of what is being done.

Time will tell if the claimed reliability materialises.

However , most of the vitriol on here has been bugger all to do with engines, those postings serve a very different agenda.

Dave

132

That’s not really a fair comparison. The base honda conversion with remap is not the same as what you have posted.

That particular engine is not to my knowledge in an elise and has a number of other addons - in an elise that would probably cost more than the standard conversion with a supercharger.

But I take your point re additional power that can be wrung out of the honda.

Its was a response to a direct quote “any NA honda”. Thats is absolutely a NA honda (the dry sump is actually pretty neutral - its there to stop it blowing up not for power so there is nothing much in that mix thats expensive - look at the spec its a Uk engine (cams) with rollers and a decent manifold)

Top be really generous:

http://www.dyno-plot.co.uk/dyno/dynoplot/id%3D119_2%26sort%3Drec%26but_sea%3Dqs%26sea_simple%3Delise/index.htm

he still “looses”, and this is 18 months ago on a shocking map, but note - King dick says very clearly “any NA honda”, I’m actucually being generous and keeping comparisions to K20s. Just another example of how anything he says is likely to be off the cuff b0ll0cks. Steve B has proven comprehensively that a good K series can do just as well as a honda, and DVA has recently shown good repeatable engines that are still “k series” (for some definition of the term) that are every bit as good as anything you can do with a K20, he on the other hand is still 2 years behind the curve in every sense.

Sure the oringal “NA honda” is not in an elise, the second cetainly is and my new engine is trouncing that - trying to get the manifold sorted for mine but my engine is currently hitting 260+bhp on the bench - but it wants a big exhaust with some odd sizes. Its not that dramatic - what is the case is that yet again Erland gets shown to be talking mince. All talk, no results.

133

Wow. I read this whole thread from start to finish. dont know much more about engines than when I started… certainly know much more about engine builders!!

Jim

134

Wow. I read this whole thread from start to finish. dont know much more about engines than when I started… certainly know much more about engine builders!!

Jim

Thats a good lesson to learn, results mean more than claims.

135

“THERE WERE NO UPRATED BEARINGS DONE FOR 42MM BEARINGS, BY ROVER CERTAINLY, OR ANYONE ELSE THAT I AM AWARE OF.”

Once again you are incorrect. Even though I have told you now at least 3 times of the AS16 bearings in 42mm size.

I have spoken with Simon Thornley about the details surrounding the production of these and this is his response.

Hi Dave,

Bearing fatigue during the 200hr high speed (max power speed) durability tests was a known problem with the AS15 bearing material. The ‘white metal’ would de-laminate from the backing material. In fact from the condition of the bearings that I witnessed post strip down I’m quite shocked that they ever passed the sign off criteria in the first place.
The introduction of the more durable AS16 material gave a stepped change in fatigue performance & any bearings that I saw post strip down looked as good as new except for a few scores caused by casting sand which the production washes failed to remove.

AS16 bearings in the smaller 42mm dia. were commissioned in a batch for a 1600cc VVC project.
These were to be production engines, however the project was still born & the bearing shells were surplus to requirements. These shells were stored in the team lock up for more that 12 months & during a severe clear out of this lock up the shells were declared scrap. I was given permission to use the shells. Several sets were indeed given to you.

Hope that helps,

Cheers,

Simon.

Thank you Simon for expanding the story.

I think that clears up the business of the bearing fatigue problem with the AS15 material and about the existence of 42mm bearings in AS16 material. It also gives a massive clue as to the limited life of the AS15 bearings in David Ward’s engine. If the bearing material were suspect at the limited RPM and loadings on the test rig then it is no surprise that they would be marginal in an 8000RPM/245BHP engine.

Simon, you have never set eyes on any of the components from David Ward�s engine, as far as I know you have never met David or his mechanic, you have limited experience of engines in general. And yet your massive EGO and stupefying arrogance convinces you that you can better diagnose the reason for David’s engine failure than someone who has thoroughly inspected all the parts involved and has at least ten times the experience of many many different engines than you have. What a mind numbingly ridiculous idea.

It is not possible for anybody to determine the cause of an engine failure with any certainty, no matter how deep their experience, without first seeing and inspecting the parts involved. To say that an engine balanced by someone other than Steve is likely to fail because Steve is the only one who can balance properly is lunacy and I�m sure Steve would agree.

David Ward�s engine failure had nothing to do with how well it was balanced. It had to do with the durability of the bearings. David’s existing crank was used at his request and the only bearing choice available was the AS15 stock bearing. The output of the engine, coupled with marginal oiling caused the bearing failure. Due in part to the now exhausted supply of AS16 42mm bearings a decision was made to use an 1800 crank with larger journals for which AS16 bearings and VP2 bearings were avabilable. This also had the advantage of increasing the engine capacity to 1900cc.

Anyway back to balancing…

Many thousands of very successful racing engines have been balanced by people other than Steve and run very successfully at very high RPM , to think otherwise just shows how inexperienced you are and how obsessed by your own (often erroneous) diatribes about balancing. I have had hundreds of engines balanced over the years by various companies, as have many of my customers, many of these have been race and championship winning engines. To suggest that all these are wrongly done shows a child like naivety and a towering arrogance. You have built a little world around yourself which is fed by your EGO and a distorted idea of your own importance, this has very little to do with reality.

Are you seriously suggesting that VF are the only people in the world who can balance an engine properly? Much as I admire Steve, his work and the techniques he uses and would use him in preference to others and further encourage others to use his services, I find that completely and utterly ludicrous.

How many engines have you had balanced? How many have been balanced by companies other than VF? How much real world personal experience have you had of balancing at other balancers, how many other balancers have you used personally other than Steve. At how many of these have you inspected their equipment, or checked their results on your components. Do you have a clue how many balancing companies there are in the UK, or what techniques they use? What machines they use, what tolerances they balance to? How many of these engines that you personally have had balanced by other companies have you subsequently had rebalanced at VF?, where are the statistics to support this ridiculous notion?

You need a reality check Simon., your brain is addled.

Dave

137

More garbage…

Do you know anything about rod loadings Simon?

Do you know how much higher the rod loadings are at 8200 againt 6500RPM?, do you know how much higher they are with 245BHP against 120? Do you have any idea of oil film strengths or the oil delivery required to sustain them at 8200 or the effects of marginal oiling, cavitation of oil etc.?

Have you read Simon’s comments about being surprised they were ever signed off for use in standard engines…

Ever wondered why Rover saw fit to introduce AS16 in the first place for standard engines.

Still think you are better placed to diagnose the cause of DW’s engine failure?

I think the readers of this thread are intelligent enough to make their own judgements and are probably heartily sick of the groundhog day style replay of the same old rubbish.

David’s engine also saw sustained high speed running on the RR under heavy loading during mapping, all adding to the cumulative fatigue of the bearings.

Keep grasping at those straws…


Dave

138

King K,

Going back to something Uldis brought up, what gearbox do you intend on using with your new batch of engines ? As Uldis has said the original gearbox is not strong enough and the gearing is poor. If you look at the cascade curves that Steve B did it shows that it is the honda gearbox which gives it the greater advantage. Such that even the 230BHP and 190lb/ft 2.3 duratec is still slower. A quiafe box is ~�4,000 and still not rated to the power and torque you talk about, also this extra money may well make your option of keeping the k-series more expensive than converting to a different enigne and box.

139

Well said that man…an average 220bhp honda coupled with its nice close 6 speed box is streets ahead in terms of torque at the wheels than even my 251bhp/170lbft 1.9K when used with the Lotus CR box.

My more powerful engine is a fair match for the NA Hondas when used with my Quaife box. And I expect will be better with the quaife UCCR ratios (as Uldis uses I beleive).

However using the UCCR set ruins the car for road use - noise of the box and high rpm cruising are bad. The UCCR box is fine for a dedicated track or race car though.

There is always a balance between the closeness of the ratios and how often they require to change gear.

Using a simulator (such as the one for free download on the Bosch website IIRC) the 2.3 duratec and the CR box work a little better than the NA Honda due to the gear change.

A K will never match the 2.3 Duractec for power, so given that the choices of gearboxes are the same in the Elise chassis installation, the Duratec will likely always be better than the K.

140

Cough, “The Duractec conversion suffers due to its retention of the Lotus gearing. Even with a CR box even the 2.3 duratec doesn’t outperform the NA Honda.”

http://forums.seloc.org/viewthread.php?tid=83418#pid2223282