Where have all the King K Engines gone?

Simon,

You should read my posts.

I didn’t threaten anyone with court action, I hinted to you that you risked court action from a third party as a wake up call for you, since you were bandying around proven incorrect figures about Scholar’s products. I also made it clear in the statement that the possibility was not from me. I and others have already pointed this out to you , but you seem to be stuck in a cycle of denial and repetition.

Here is the posting just to remind you…

"Your conversion from microns to thou was a blatant error and you immediately used those erroneous and grossly inflated values in a direct comparison with other bore ovality figues given in thou to make the Scholar block look very bad. This was a complete and utter distortion of the truth and has proved to be total boll*cks, as have most of the claims you made in that post; none of which you can substantiate.

I cant help but laugh now when I read your posts.

It is one thing to be ignorant of your own measurements and their meaning, ignorance isnt stupidity, it is just a question of not knowing what you are talking about.

When ignorance becomes stupidity is when you display your ignorance to all and present it as proven fact. Where this becomes libelous is when you use this incorrect data, based on ignorance in an attempt to damage a person or business.

Tread carefully Simon, or you might well find yourself on the receiving end of a well suppoprted lawsuit, and I dont mean from me.

It I were you I would scurry along and edit the howlers out of your posts before someone anonymous kicks your backside.
"

Is that clear enough for you?


The post from Steve Smith is not a fabrication, it is word for word from Steve… here is a copy of his mail from my archive. I will contact Steve on Monday for him to substantiate it.

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Post from Steve Smith, cut and pasted directly from his email…

Hi Dave, Thanks for the effort you are taking. I have modified the draft accordingly. The issue over Dave Wards rods came about because during one of several long and whiney calls from Simon, he was banging on about some of your customers who had obviously not previously had engine sets balanced by me. He came up with 2 or three names, one of which was DW. On the 2nd or 3rd visit to the workshop during the time DW’s kit was there, he spotted the rods and dived in to inspect. Obviously he saw that some rods were bushed and some were not. I obviously let him understand that they were your customers kit and DW’s. To calm him down over the fact that apparently “you” don’t get anything balanced by me and see no importance in it !!
As I have said to you before, I don’t tell him that I am balancing your stuff to avoid the pushy and direct barrage of questions that go on for months thereafter. Also that anything that is by chance learnt from visiting my workshop is my business and in any normal professionals routine would not be discussed elsewhere.



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approved statement from Steve Smith

I have spoken at length with Steve Smith at Vibration Free and he has said that he does not want to be dragged into the debate directly.

Following Steve’s clarification to me by mail, the following text has been approved by Steve to be posted

Simon Erland is simply a customer of Vibration Free Balancing." Steve Smith is not his �Pal and partner in all this�, he and Simon simply have a professional relationship in as much as he balances engine sets for Simon as he does for many others. From time to time has advised Simon on balancing matters, lending him reading material on balancing theory to help him follow the principles and tolerancing issues.

Emphatically he does not pass Simon Erland confidential information about his professional relationships with his other clients or their engine sets. All information about clients and their engines is completely confidential and always will be. He has not given Simon information about the frequency of visits from Dave Andrews and will never do so.

“Whereas careful balancing is a vital step in the building or rebuilding of any engine, so is the fitting tolerance of interconnecting parts that maintain or loose the balancing level achieved in a balancing machine. Simon often over-emphasises the importance of balancing and does get confused. He certainly has miss interpreted the principles behind heavy metaling crankshafts, (Simon Erland / Steve Butts). Lets be clear, everyone recognises the need for low rotating moment of inertia. A heavy metalled 1.8 K crank is about 2kg heavier than standard, however; the complete rotating crankset assembly can have a lower rotating moment, also the flywheel effect is shared equally amongst the main bearings. This all moves towards a crankset that accelerates quicker has less flex and subsequent bearing loads. I commend Steve Butts in firstly understanding the principle and commissioning the first heavy metalled “K” crank. I understand he is totally pleased with the result. There have been several heavy metalled “K” cranks made to date for other customers. Simon Erland is not one of them. Steve Butts introduced himself to me, before the famous Autosport show introductions and was not introduced to me by Simon Erland.”

The heavy metalling of cranks is not a new science, with regard to squeezing extra weight into an underweight crankshaft counterweight. However, treating automotive crankshafts as a flexible rotor and balancing each cylinder unit individually is not common and something Vibration Free does get involved in regularly. Simon Erland did not design or create the heavy metalled “K” crankshaft we are talking about here, Vibration Free did.

“I would like to also make it clear that Vibration Free are working with customers throughout all levels of motorsport and industry in general. It has a considerable number of “confidentiality agreements” in place. Vibration Free do not, will not and have not passed on customers information to others without their express permission.”

"Simon has an ability to put 2 and 2 together and get 6, I wish he would be more clear with all his “facts”.

“I would also like to state for the record that I have not been threatened with lawsuits by Dave Andrews or anyone else despite Simon Erlands claims.”

“I would ask that if anyone would like to discuss any aspect of vibration analysis or dynamic balancing with regard to their own projects or needs, they can contact me through the Vibration Free website. (www.vibrationfree.co.uk) Advice is always available, I have been involved specifically in vibration and balancing for 23 years and I am totally independent of any suppliers.”

Steve Smith

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Vibration Free

Tel Workshop: 01869 345535

Tel Office: 01869 345565
Fax: 01869 345535
Steve Mobile: 07774 468726
Alison Mobile: 07920 017460

He also asks not to become involved in any further discussion or debate and that future queries regarding these matters are directed to the above statement rather than to him.

I will be posting a copy of this statement permanently on the internet in order to clarify the situation or settle any disputes without his involvement in future.

He will be speaking to Simon directly in order to communicate with him the seriousness of his behaviour and it�s impact on his business

-------------- end of statement


It really couldnt be clearer Simon…

Now I will give you the benefit of the doubt over this after I have confirmed with Steve (not that I need to) that this is his statement verbatim. Following that clarification from Steve only a fool would tread down that path any further.

Dave

Give over Simon, I’ve pretty much given you the benefit of the doubt up to now, but you’re pushing your luck now.

I’m sorry but no conventional lubricated crank can live past about 14,000rpm. The centrifugal forces are too high and the oil will just (pseudo) cavitate in the drillings. Your conrods will kick be spat out of the block before you get past 10,000rpm on a long stroke K. High speed engines will need nose fed lubrication.

And what are coated bearings? I’ll drink from the holy grail before I believe that. Are you talking about sputter bearings? Keep it real man.

who told you what bore/stroke ratio I have…who told you I don’t have enough bearing overlap to run a continuous oil drilling through the mains …or even where the blocks were cast… maybe that gives away just how much work I have been doing…so watch this this space

You’re quite right, that is a possibility but I haven’t seen a longitudinally drilled crank that went much past 15,000. Also the fatigue life of the crank itself would be rather short? … but I can see where your original statement came from (in a nice way)

It sounds like you have a fair idea what you’re doing and I would love to come and see one of your engines, the old K does have a lot going for it.

Regarding the Yota lubrication, the far eastern engines always have very simple oil pumps which seam to cavitate at high speed, this helps save some pumping work when the pressure reg valve- PRV, is wide open. As they get near the redline the pressure is falling badly but they try to avoid increasing the PRV pressure to minimise pumping work/friction so instead they cross drill the mains. It can all get a bit marginal so I’m not surprised we see the odd crank failure.

They also state that the sump is designed to cope with 1G lateral force, it’ll need more than that…

Simon,

The truth is there in Steve’s statement.

I don’t need to sue anyone, readers of this thread can see for themselves.

Your argument over heavy metalled cranks is with Steve Butts, not me.

However much you keep banging on about it, Steve Smith’s statement is unequivocal and verbatim.

Live with it.

Dave

Just as a stupified postscript…

Are you quite sane Simon? are you seriously suggesting that I would make up such a text and post it on a public forum, knowing that anyone (including you) could very easily check it’s veracity with a simple 'phone call to Steve? And that the post itself invites them to do so? And that i would post it once again? What kind of fantasy world are you living in?

I seriously worry for your state of mind.

Let’s be clear about this.

The statement posted is verbatim from Steve, if there is any fabrication in it , it has been made by Steve not me, but I will confirm it once again on Monday.

If you have any issues with that, then take it up with Steve.

His comments about heavy metalling cranks are in response to your arguments with Steve Butts not me.

The rest of the statement clearly states that he has not passed information to you about the frequency of my visits to him, information incidentally that has been proven to be incorrect by invoices from Steve already published on this board.

I cannot fathom what point you are trying to make.

Let me make it clear… If you want to make a point about heavy metalling of cranks, make it to Steve, it is his words that you are taking issue with, not mine.

I’m off to bed now, busy day tomorrow.

Dave

Surely the piston speeds at 20,000 rpm would be absurd… ?

It’s not the speed though, it’s the changing direction bit at either end.

Simon,

The sequence of events as described below show simply…

  1. that you are utterly obsessed.
  2. that you jump to conclusions
  3. that you grub around trying to dig up dirt
  4. that you fail to take in the simplest concepts no matter how many times they are presented to you in cold facts.
  5. you ignore the proven facts to suit your own twisted agenda

We have already done this to death many times on this BBS, but for the benefit of those who have not seen what an idiot you made of yourself before, I will respond to your fairy tale.

As far as Dave Ward’s engine is concerned the sequence of events was simple.

Was it?, to think even for a moment that you know more about it than I do is just utterly, utterly ludicrous.

you built his engine

Yes, As I have told you many times before on this BBS and as David himself has told you before, it was built using existing parts at the bottom end, only the pistons were new and these were scale balanced, all of the other components had been balanced at the previous build. A simple thing to grasp… Understand?

the engine ran very badly on it’s first outing, to my reckoning failed

The engine ran absolutely perfectly up to the point he suffered oil pressure failure. David described it’s performance up to that point in glowing terms, and it’s smoothness. After careful examination of all the parts we discovered a large ingress of excess silicone sealant in the sump pickup which effectively stopped the scavenge pump from operating. The sump was refitted by David’s installation engineer after the engine was picked up from here, he used silicone sealant despite my request not too.

When setup at Emerald, David’s engine was the most powerful 1800 K Dave Walker had ever seen, bar none.

you had not balanced the steel crank etc

As I have stated many times before and you have ignored many times before, all the rotating parts had already been balanced when the engine was previously built by Davids previous engine builder, as well you know.

I heard about the problems and sent Dave Ward King K

I spoke to him and convinced him that Steve Smith must balance that engine.

It had already been balanced… as you well know. You phoned him to try to grub up dirt.

I told Steve about engine and to expect it to balance

It was none of your business and your obsession over it was based on incorrect assumptions by you (as usual).

Dave returned the engine to you and requested that it be balanced

No he didnt. He came to see me with the engine to find the cause of failure. He told me that you kept pestering him to the point where he asked you never to phone him again and hung up on you, following that, you still pestered him over the 'phone, something he was very upset about. He told me that it was near impossible to get you off the 'phone or to listen, that’s why he hung up.

you sent crank set etc to Steve

I am typing this slowly so that you read it slowly… then maybe it will sink in… I sent a different crank set and rods to Steve because we decided to take the opportunity to go from 1800cc to 1900cc during the rebuild. Since the crank set and rods had been changed (are you getting this?) I decided to send it for balance, something I have been doing quite rountinely for over 30 years, well before you knew what an engine was. Now, which part of that don’t you understand?

I got Steve work, and Dave to understand issues for the first time

Simon, you are living in a fantasy world. As I have already proven in previous threads more times than I can count, I routinely take crank sets to Steve (and others) for balancing. It had bugger-all to do with you. To credit yourself shows a mountainous EGO and self satisfaction that is fed by pure fantasy and borders on mental imbalance.

Steve balances crank, so at least that part of the engine is sorted.

Steve balanced the parts I sent him and does a fine job, no denying that, that’s why I took the crank set there. But what you have of course omitted is that it was a different crankset that was sent there, understand now why it was balanced?

Dave benifited, in his engine, Steve benifited with work.

Undeniably David’s engine benefitted as did Steve, however to credit yourself is just a complete delusion Simon.

Tell us now how you brokered world peace… and reduced third world hunger and debt…

your credibility is was it is…

The engine went on to set a record at Emerald for a 1900cc K and is running well AFAIK. It no longer has a sump fitted with silicone sealant.

Your credibility took such a nosedive that you had to apologise to various 3rd parties on-line for misquoting them in an attempt to discredit me and others, following this humiliating debacle you disappeared for 6 months to lick your self inflicted wounds. A familiar pattern it seems.

So much for your simple understanding…

For goodness sake Simon, seek some help, we have already been through this same loop so many times before. Each time you repeat incorrect information despite the self evident facts, you always end up shooting yourself in the foot, it’s worse than groundhog day.

I expect of course that you will ignore the inconvenience of facts and rake up some other deluded tale that has already been played out before on this BBS and has already resulted in a humiliating climbdown. Do you think that we have all forgotten?, do you think that eventually if you keep repeating rubbish it will become true simply because you wish it to be so?

Since I have an engine to finish building tomorrow, incidentally one which failed first time out after being built by another engine builder I will sign off and leave you to ponder the facts.


Dave

Postscript…

I have been in touch with Steve at Vibration Free. Once again his version of events and relationships is very very different from yours and he is once again incensed that you have sought to drag him into your petty disputes. He will be penning a short letter on VF headed paper, signed by him, confirming that the statement posted on here is an exact duplicate of the statement he wrote and sent to me.

Then, once again, any doubt about the true situation will be dispelled for any sane reader of this thread, except of course for you Simon… it will probably require Steve to come round personally and flush your head down the lavatory to get it to sink in.

BTW, the only cars that failed on the trip were a Honda Elise and a 111R.

I don’t say mine is better, just saying it’s not worse. Same power as the Honda but lighter. And yes, with me driving it was quicker than anything on track

Come on Uldis. Its easy for these things to be taken out of context, but you know that my car broke down because of a problem with the ORIGINAL LOTUS fuel pump. Your statement sounds like your blaiming the engine, but there was no problem with the conversion. As for you being the fastest thing on track, again, yes, but you fail to mention that you overtook me, literally, as my engine cut out (no fuel).

It would be like me saying that i was faster than you round donington because you were thrown off for excess noise. its not the full story.

Tim, as Shug says, the Honda seems to have been the old pump. Something electrical enyway. The bad thing is that the owner had done an engine conversion hoping not to have any other problems.

Again, Uldis, i hoped to have no more problems, but this was a problem with the ORIGINAL LOTUS fuel pump. Its got nothing to do with the honda, and no doubt would have failed regardless of what engine was in the back.

BTW, the only cars that failed on the trip were a Honda Elise and a 111R.

I don’t say mine is better, just saying it’s not worse. Same power as the Honda but lighter. And yes, with me driving it was quicker than anything on track

Come on Uldis. Its easy for these things to be taken out of context, but you know that my car broke down because of a problem with the ORIGINAL LOTUS fuel pump. Your statement sounds like your blaiming the engine, but there was no problem with the conversion. As for you being the fastest thing on track, again, yes, but you fail to mention that you overtook me, literally, as my engine cut out (no fuel).

It would be like me saying that i was faster than you round donington because you were thrown off for excess noise. its not the full story.

Tim, as Shug says, the Honda seems to have been the old pump. Something electrical enyway. The bad thing is that the owner had done an engine conversion hoping not to have any other problems.

Again, Uldis, i hoped to have no more problems, but this was a problem with the ORIGINAL LOTUS fuel pump. Its got nothing to do with the honda, and no doubt would have failed regardless of what engine was in the back.

You’re right Neil, I have to apologise, that came across bad. I mentioned after that post (in your second quote) that it was the original pump (or something electrical around that area).

For the record Neil had recently done a trip to the 'Ring and SPA with no problems whatsoever and everyone commented on how quick he was.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that it’s not only the K cars that have problems, whatever they are and that maybe during your Honda conversion (as a package) some other things should have been looked at to make sure the whole package is reliable. The original pump we know is not very impresisve, with its plastic gears and low output.
Makes me wonder if post conversion there’s any other weak link left behind: other electrics? suspension?

So, make no mistake everyone, I’m not slagging Neils Honda, that hasn’t failed, and he’s one of the very quick drivers from up here.
Neither I’m slagging the 'yota, as I don’t know for certain what failed. Rumours are that it’s engine internals, but that’s not enough to say it’s not a good engine.
Like I said before, sh!t happens.

I was genuinely gutted you had that problem, and was really hoping to see you on track without any problems, not because I wanted to compare engines (I know at the end of the day they’re pretty similar), but because having seen you before on your K days I know how well you drive, and was looking to have a few interesting laps.

Probably who would have been the quicker (of you and me) depended on other things, like driving styles, suspension settings, tyre pressures, tyres overheating or simply if we were tired.
But certainly you couldn’t deny we would have had fun

Really hope we can be at the track together next time, we even had an idea at some stage of swapping cars, remember?

Simon,

The engine burned oil because of a known problem with the Pistal pistons and their oil rings, thoroughly covered in previous postings on this BBS and well known, Scholar and Pistal have concedes that the problemwas of their making and have supplied replacement rings. This was also conceded by you after analysis from Fred Hadley and a bunch of bullshit postings from you.

All this has been thoroughly covered in previous BBS postings as I’m sure many of the readers will remember, regurgitating it in the hope that the mind-numbing excrutia will have caused them to forget is just mischief making.

The full account of the engine is already posted here, selecting bits of it to try to make mileage is pathetic.

I will talk with David Ward about the current situation and also about his comments regarding your pestering 'phone calls.

All the waffle about 42mm bearings… yes the stock bearings are not up to the job, especially when the oiling is interrupted… Rover regard the 42mm bearings to be good for no more than 160BHP.

I will be posting Steve’s letter here later.

In the meantime endless regurgitation wont change the facts, putting a spin on them wont change the facts.

We dont need to have it out, AFAIK David is happy with his engine, end of story.

Dave

I hope one day an olive branch is offered in all this. SimonE and DaveA are two of only a small group of people committed to building performance K series engines. I am sure that there is a great deal more common ground in what you do than the debates would suggest. I have seen first hand Simon’s commitment to developing the engine in a number of forms and am filled with admiration for the hunderds of hours he has clearly put in redeveloping many aspects of the engine. DaveA has vast experience with the k series and has many happy customers out there. It is ironic that at the end of the day you are both working towards broadly the same goals.

I have met SimonE and came away thinking what a knowledgeable, enthusiastic, helpful and decent bloke he was to me. I have in the past had conversations with DaveA who was really pleasant and helpful. I can’t help feeling that if common ground were found, you would actually get along with one another pretty well.

I hope nothing as important as what you are both trying to achieve gets caught up in any legal wrangle. The lawyers would undoubtedly be the only victors when the dust has settled.

For my part I remain grateful for all the work that you both do - it gives me options to sustain my enjoyment in my car that has in its own little way become my passion.

At the moment simon, I am short of time to reply. Suffice to say that spoke with David over a period of several hours and his comments to me about you were volunteered and are as posted. They are very different to the ones you suppose you have had. I expect he is fearful of another interminably long 'phone call from you, anyone who has received one will understand why.

The oil ring issue has been thrashed out many time, Sholar and Pistal ackonwledge that the problem is entirely of their making so any criticism you may have of me over it is ill aimed and a waste of effort.

I too have engines with well over 160BHP on 42mm bearings, however 245BHP is pushing it especially when the oiling is marginal. Nonetheless Rover thenselves saw fit to produce tougher bearing for engines over that figure, they would hardly bother if there was no problem in that area.

All this has been posted before… again and again.

I have no doubt that you supplied David with a copy of King K, I suspect if his dog was around he would have got one too.

In response to your words on balancing… a quote from Steve Smith’s posting

Simon often over-emphasises the importance of balancing and does get confused. He certainly has miss interpreted the principles behind heavy metaling crankshafts,

From an acknowledged expert and one who you recommend.

Nuff said.

Dave

I HAVE BRIEFED MY LAWYER AND HAVE A SOLICITOR WATCHING YOUR POSTS EVERY DAY. I AM READY - ARE YOU?

Oh my God !! are they watching mine too ?

I see you have gone quiet on your claim of a K capable of 14,000 rpm. How’s it coming on ?

Bernard

… it is happening, there are lots of very good [record] results already, there are the first of the all new engines ready very soon, and two, again completely new, generations of conversion killers hard up behind the first wave. Expect the goal posts to be completely moved, and I’ll let you know when… I …am ready.

I am quaking in my boots in expectation Simon. Give us a clue, will it be this season or next ? Or maybe the one after ?

Simple question, why is it all your results are cloaked in secrecy ?

Bernard