Turbos Rule

Hi Guys - You’ve bought a great car with fantastic potential. To make it a man’s car, it needs muscle. To answer a few of your questions, firstly we do have a supercharger conversion but after comparing it to the fabulous power spread of our turbo conversion, we stopped selling it! Judging by the uninformed comments on the Lotus bulletin board, the writers may be good at controlling a “mouse” but a throttle pedal with proper power in the end of it would be a new experience. At BBR we deal in “GRUNT” Lag is a thing of the past none of our turbo conversions have it and never did. With modern high speed ECU’s and quite high compression ratios, there is no discernible lag. If you are pratting around at 1,500 rpm in 5th gear and expect instant lift off then we recommend you stick to shopping with the wife! At BBR we can tailor conversions to suit just what you want. We have plenty of 200 to 260 bhp 1800k series motors around but once you go over 260 bhp the engine needs to be carefully constructed. We always build in reliability; we are not interested in building weak engines that won’t stand the test of time. That’s why we pioneered the 1800K block strengthening kit - which others have badly copied. When we talk power we mean it. No BS at BBR! 300+ horsepower doesn’t come cheap. However, Adrian’s Elise just needs a racing seat, belts and a fire system and it would happily give a good account of itself at Le Mans - and it would still be running at the end. Adrian wanted everything, including taking Gordon Murray’s F1 McLaren’s knickers down. With its superior power to weight ratio, it easily achieves this. As EVO said, the only car they had ever driven with such sustained acceleration was the F1 McLaren. A genuine 300 bhp plus engine conversion with all the right bits in it fully dyno tested would cost around �26k. Adrian’s Elise blows away Fireblades; in fact I challenged an assortment of R1s, a ZX9 and some ‘Blades over a 12 mile stretch last Summer - they were not in the same event, but that’s another story… So stop bitchin’ about turbos. The days of no boost and then instantaneous boost are long gone. There is nothing like loads of torque at mid range. With superchargers, you are always revving the nuts off the thing. With turbos, you just ride the huge flat torque curve. But, if you must have a supercharger, we can always get the drawings out of mothballs. Have a nice day! David BrodieBBR ELISE � EXIGE K-SEIERS ENGINE POWER CONVERSION COSTSBBR 300+ BHP 290FT.LB. TORQUE 26K PHASE4 HPTBBR 260+ BHP 240FT.LB. TORQUE 16K PHASE3 HPTBBR 220+ BHP 205FT.LB. TORQUE 10K PHASE2 LPT*BBR 200+ BHP 180FT.LB. TORQUE 6K PHASE1 LPTBBR SUPER 140 ELISE 1.5K(ECU MOD ONLY �495)PLEASE NOTE ALL OUR CONVERSIONS RUN FULL LAMBDA CONTROL AND ARE EMMISIONS FRIENDLY.*These are installed prices and include a full strip down, inspect and rebuild using BBR components, DYNO running in and custom mapping, re-installation of engine, setup up and road test.FULLY USER REPROGRAMABLE FUEL AND IGNITION ECU �895 � ALLOWS YOU TO MODDIFY AND MAP YOUR OWN ENGINE AVAILIBLE JUNE 2001BBR SPECIAL TURBO 5 SPEED GEAR CLUSTER 1ST 65MPH 2ND 105 MPH 3RD 135MPH 4TH 160 MPH 5TH 185 MPH - �3950BBR DESIGNED SPECIAL LIMITED SLIP DIFFERENTIAL - �950

OK, so you’re 300BHP conversion is �26,000How much is the 260BHP conversion ?Word to the wise, you’ll earn more respect from the readers of this BBS by simply (shamelessly) promoting your company, rather than dragging others down.

Looks like it is 16k makes the TT deal look cheap (amazingly enough)

where are all these owners…TT have their own community…is there one for BBR owners?Do you have any demonstrators? Do you ever attend any of the popular track/airfield days or even any of the Lotus shows?

What puzzles me a little is the pricing structure. To take the standard Exige engine from 177 bhp to 220 bhp is �10k which is the same price quoted by you to take a 118 bhp Elise to 220bhp. The Exige uses the Powertrain head and I would have thought that moving from 177 to 220 bhp would be less involved (ie expensive). Similarly the 260 bhp upgrade since it is only above this level (as you observed) that the real expense kicks in.

Strong words… strong prices. Even in the “low-gain” sector. With original Lotus parts you’ll get a normally aspirated tune-up of your engine to - say, at least 190 BHP - for less than half the cost of a BBR-turbo squeezing 5… perhaps 10 BHP more than that out of the engine. AND you’ll loose your Lotus warranty. Which we all are still “enjoying” and NEEDING! I’ve seen the BBR website… the kits look (and read) fantastic. Solid work. Very obviously these guys know building engines better than promoting them. Shame how David Brodie missed the right “tune” of this BBS completely… Anyway… If I had all the money of the world - and the Exige would be nothing more than my “track-toy”, doing 5000 miles a year on closed circuits, I would LOVE to fit a BBR turbo getting me 300+ BHP. Well… but perhaps I went to Porsche instead to have myself a custom made 911 turbo ready for the same LeMans category David Brodie talked about - and could be SURE like hell, the engine lasted AT LEAST 50.000 miles. Which I definitely dare to doubt with BBR’s “Killer-Ks”.Marcus

Just one thing David,how come you are building turbo charged engines without any lag and World Rally Cars still need special anti lag devices to achieve this???A turbo charged engine will allways have turbo lag, simple physics. I have heard and read this many times now and I have driven most of the cars and they all had lag. I start getting bored by these claims. Nikolaj

Indeed, We run an Imprezza World rallycar with (luckily) switchable anti-lag… You think your Exige is lumpy at idle now… If it is running anti lag I dread to think how it would be.I think to be honest he probably refers to more controlled turbo kick-in with smooth power delivery (lagged but not as noticeable)rather than an obvious kick in the back half a second later.Tim

With respect, I don’t agree with the original post. I drove the BBR modified (nominally 180hp) Elsie demonstrator at B&C and it was a nightmare. Lower than standard power below 2500, then a huge burst of power up to 5500, then it all died. Absolutely no relationship between foot and engine - serious amounts of lag at lower revs.The comment about supercharged engines is simply total rubbish -I’d go as far as to say dishonest. Having driven one, basically it’s like fitting a 3 litre engine in the back. Bags of torque at low revs and you absolutely DO NOT have to rev it madly, whereas with the turbo car I had to get >4000 every time if I wanted predicatble engine response for overtaking.

I cross-posted my previous note onto the british-cars BBS and provoked the following response. Thought you might be interested.I swa the “140 upgrade gives virtually zero power increase” thread about a month ago IIRC.Alan>>>>>>>>>I’ve just read the post from the BBR bloke, and I cannot believe the level of rubbish in it. This post is from the guy who sells a so-called upgrade from standard to 140 that has been proven to deliver ZERO power increase, in independant rolling road tests published on this BBS. I recall talking to the owner of a TT supercharged car who had discussed a BBR turbo upgrade with this guy. BBR had apparently sent him an Email basically saying that supercharged cars will not meet emission regs or pass MOTs and telling him he was liable to go to jail if he went down the supercharger route!! The bloke concerned (can’t remember his name) had in fact done his homework and told me BBR were basically telling giant porkies.Not so much pinches of salt neded here - rather whole Lots-wife equivalents. We would be much better off without people who make claims not based on fact - it’s almost an attempt to con us out of money.I feel better now.tim

quote:Originally posted by B7SHY:Looks like it is 16k Duh… stupid me.

I’ve heard of BBR only since getting into Lotuses, but I’ve known of TurboTechnics for a good 10+ years, they seem to be a well respected bunch, not out to make huge claims, and appear to be committed to producing a solid end-product (which is why I’m trusting my �30,000 car with them)I have an Impreza, if a Fuji Heavy Industries (who make Subarus) can’t eradicate turbolag, then I’m surprised a tinpot outfit like BBR have found the magic solution.With the std. Exige, the acceleration is linear, as is the braking. To implement a turbo, which surges and tails off goes against this ethos.Ah well…

all I can say is to this BBR bloke:WHAT A TOSSER…

Not that I don’t like turbo-cars… I’ve driven an 80s Maserati biturbo which accelerated to … say … 30 mph like a lorry and STILL managed to stay in the low 5 seconds range for the 0 - 60 mph… Having two large turbos kick in simultaneously without a warning at a certain revnumber made up an “italian macho driving style” which I really loved. So did the rear end of the car which often came in first… Today turbos get to work much sooner (almost at idle!) and much smoother than before. A “lag” is seldom really worth mentioning because of the usually good torque of the modern engines even “without” turbopower in the lowest rev regions AND the said smooth and early kick in of the turbine(s). But of course it IS there and will stay there. That’ “turbo-philosophy”. And much of the fun of it. But talking philosophy… I notice a more annoying “lag” within the “linear” acceleration of the Exiges engine before 3800 rpm than in many modern turbo engines at about 2200 rmp… So if I wouldn’t fear the Rover Engine to break down way to early in number of miles, I would give a turbo tuning a chance. Superchargers are much gentler to an engine… Marcus

Dave Brodie has been building engines for Years… and building them very wellhe is no Tosser…So he dosen’t charm your pants off when ya meet him and he could work on his PR and advertising but that’s not really Dave…

Ok, so they may make strong (and expemsive) engines, but that’s no excuse to the nonsense these guys peddle.Here’s the link to the BBR interceptor test mentioned previously. Instead of the claimed 22hp increase, the tests show a slight decrease in power although there is a small increase in maximum torque. http://www.lotus-elise.nl/Tests/ChipTuning/chiptuning.html Enough said, I think.

Hi all,yes it was my car that was tested and mentioned in the above link, we did the test before the 150 Hp tune at Thielert’s in Hamburg, because Thielert gives a one year ( ! ) warrenty on the driveline of your Elise after tuning, and they refused to do so with the BBR intercepter chip in. We rolled the Elise 2 times, with and without chip, same rr, same operater, honest compareson. Result is clear, I’ve been had.That is just the smallest of tunejobs they do, and even bugger that up. If anybody wants to throw more money in the gutter, be my guest.Bob van Melzenlook at :http://www.lotus-elise.nl/Tests/ChipTuning/chiptuning.html

If I had spent money on an engine mod. I’d want to see/feel a difference in performance too.However, rolling roads results can never be compared that closely.There are so many paramters that go towards a rolling road figure such as ambient temperature, heat soak in the engine and so on.Hell, I’ve had my Impreza record anywhere between 210bhp and 230bhp on the same rollers just 10 minutes apart with no engine modifications. It’s not an exact science.

I do agree that RR’s are no exact science… but… the RR we’ve visited has strict rules to keep the spread as low as possible.The measurement was done at same ambient temp and moisturelevel etc. (directly after each other)The procedure which is followed by the operator is EXACTLY the same for every session. For sure there will be some difference, but seeing 10bhp or more seems to be a defective RR or operator who didn’t follow an exact procedure…

When I looked at engine upgrades (a little over a year ago) I plotted graphs of power delivery for:BBR turbo 180 - info supplied by BBRTT 190 (supplied by TT)Claimed 160 hp flow and cam upgrade - info was given in confidence so I can’t mention the nameStandard engineI only have this on paper/pencil technology, but in summary the results were:Up to 2700 rpm the turbo engine power was below the standard engine.Up to 3500 the 160 engine power was below the standard engine.The TT 190 sc engine was higher power than all others until 3650 and above 5650.The turbo engine power exceeded all others from 3650 to 5650, when the TT sc power overtook it.The 160 engine power overtook the turbo engine at 6500Also:The TT power curve is in fact very close to a straight line from 1500 to 5500, when the rate of increase drops off gradually to a peak at 6500The turbo power curve parallels the TT line, approx 8-10 hp lower, to 3400. It then increases sharply to 4100 approx and then the rate of increase slows to a peak at 5600 approx. Power then drops sharply.