Spa Honda failiure

Here are the results from Simon Erlands analysis of my Honda engine from Spa if anyones interested

I also have a load of pics that came with the report - i will try to upload them later





Honda engine failiure - preliminary report


Description of failiure:-

No 3 rod broken under the L/E with severe damage to the underside of piston, valve impact damage to the piston crown,and chamber no 3.One inlet valve broken

B/E rod housing and both bolts broken, some damage to no3 crank pin and cheeks.

Crankcase punctured either side of no3 pin, and debris damage to B/E housing and cheeks of 1,2 and 4 pins.

Bearings exhibit loss of material from both fatigue and debris damage on all B/E and mains shells.

Analysis :-

Much speculation has suggested that the cause of failiure was a broken conrod bolt. Experience with such failiures or B/E journal failiures is that the crank pin suffers considerable damage as the remains of the rod are held in the cylinder and the crank impacts against the remains of the rod’s usually broken ends until the rod is knocked out of the crankcase.
Therefore breakage unber the little end is a secondary failiure. In this case the damage is overwhelmingly to the piston and cylinder bore and the crank pin is relatively clean.This suggests the rod was repeatedly thrown against the piston before it was ejected. Further the rod is broken just under the little end, which is the common rod failiure mode.

Further analysis to advance this theory can only come from crack testing the remaining three intact rods, if they all , or in part show some cracking under the little end this will lend weight to the theory that the failiure was due to rod failiure at it’s weakest point, under the little end. until such analysis is complete, and with similar analysis of the Brands Honda failiure, this theory can only be considered the most likely failiure given the evidence available.

Without question the fuelling and mapping of the engine played no part in this failiure, since all pistons and head chambers are clean and without any signs of det damage.


Third party experience :-

Conversations with Guy at CPL,and Richard at TTS reveal that they both have seen occasional piston and rod failiures in new K20s.Both have seen several pistons have the gudgeon pin pulled out-an inertial load failiure, which means a n/a engine is more susceptible to this failiure than a SC engine, and both have seen occasional rod failiures - apparently even a new Ariel Atom on its very first outing broke a rod under the little end.
Consequently both Guy and Richard are of the opinion that while a standard engine is reliable for road use, replacing rods,pistons and bracing the top of the bores is essential for any track work in a n/a or SC car.
Richard quotes �4000 for replacing rods pistons and the bore brace.


Further analysis:-


Very considerable damage was apparent to the bearings from both metal losses due to fatigue failiure and debris damage.Clearly this engine was suffering low oil pressure before the failiure though this would not have contributed to the failiure.
I am of the firm opinion that the oiling on this engine is poor and marginal for road use - inadequate for track use, however the damage points to oil starvation possibly due to oil way contamination froma previous Honda failiure ? This may also account for the debris damage, since the filter should have collected debris from the broken rod.If the oil ways have been correctly plumbed, it may be that the filter became clogged from the previous failiure and opened the valve - this would explain both the fatigue failiure and debris damage, but remains speculation without the filter to cut open.

The crack testing of the rods will give substantial new evidence to demonstrate a failiure mode and necessary modification to engines to avoid a repeat failiure, but analysis of the complete Brands failiure intact and with oil filters will give a much more complete understanding of the issues involved, though the provisional finding must be that the stock engine is prone to occasional failiure, even when new and that pistons,rods,valves and block brace are minimum modifications to make this engine track worthy.

Thats bad,I have run honda cars in competition Integra type R(1.8) and S2000 and never had a problem apart from a blown fuse! how many other K20 engines have failed in this LOT season? is it all the same problem?

Thats the strange thing, iv’e had four fail since July, the first ovalised two of the bores, the second spun a shell, the third was this engine from spa broken rod, and although i havent stripped the 4th we are sure that one has pulled the rod off the piston.

Has anyone contacted a Honda race group to see if they are having the same problems?

You seem to be having a very different experience from most Honda users. Given the frequency of failures do you think that there is something particular to your car that could be the root cause? I’ve certainaly not got much experience to call on myself, but tradionally oil starvation is killer for honda engine.

I’m sure you’ve looked at many scenarios, anything seemed feasible?

Dral

The first engine lasted for 12,000 hard miles, and we know oil starvation is not the problem on this Spa engine, the one that spun the shell was running a baffled sump also

But there were signs of starvation in Simon’s notes above? Albeit he’s pretty sure that wasn’t the cause of the failure?

I was wondering more if there could be something outside the engine that could be placing an unusual pressure on it? I’m really just talking off the top of my head here though. My thinking was just that you seem to have had three different types of failures and yet the engines seem to run very well in so many other cars?

Is there anything significantly different your setup maybe

Is there anything significantly different your setup maybe

Nigel

That’s harsh, i was trying to be careful not to imply that.

That’s harsh, i was trying to be careful not to imply that.

Didn’t realise that you knew him What other juicy gossip have you got about him?

Funny how i start having problems just as Russ’s starts to be reliable you dont think Nigels really working for Russ do you

Funny how i start having problems just as Russ’s starts to be reliable you dont think Nigels really working for Russ do you

Or perhaps the problem is the recent “on loan” transfer of Edwards Jnr?

I went to see the Wise Woman and got the hoodoo transferred over to you Mate.

Funny you should say that i have just found this picture of him casting a spell on my racer the night before the gearbox blew at Spa








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That’s brilliant, Chris PMSL

Did he tell you story about his “woolly hat”?

PS I can now see the problem - the engine’s the wrong way round!

This banter is much too friendly, would someone please start an argument

P.s whats the story with the wooly hat

This banter is much too friendly, would someone please start an argument

OK then, how come the thread has got this far without the word Tractor getting a mention

All those wanting King_K back say AYE

Oh, & you drive like a girl















Will that do?

All those wanting King_K back say AYE

Oh, & you drive like a girl















Will that do?










Nah your’e getting me mixed up with Russ

All those wanting King_K back say AYE

Oh, & you drive like a girl















Will that do?











Nah your’e getting me mixed up with Russ

I was not going to get involved in this puerile conversation, but I will say one thing…











Cough P4.

Why are these engines failing? How many this year?(in LOT) is it a common problem with this engine,or in general when used for racing?