Poll: VHPD rebuild vs. conversion

The Oily Bits S1 Specific Topics
121

The thing you have to remember is, for DVA this is a business and a livelyhood. For someone to come and mudsling with partially unsubstantiated facts is very damaging. DVA has every right to defend himself on a technical level and even on a personal level, especially when Simon starts with the personal attacks. It appears DVA is more than happy to discuss purely the technical side but then Mr Erland pipes up with a ‘I spoke to so and so and they called you a name’ type response. Petty and childish but not entirely unexpected.

Another thing to remember, we all know DVAs reputation and for better or for worse, Simons reputation. Now… a newbie to this forum or SELOC etc doesn’t. Once in a while someone will find the King K article and post it up as if it’s something new. Sadly, having something ‘published’ gives it credence regardless of its content. Things need to be out in the open so people have more information than just taking Simons ‘gospel’ as err… ‘gospel’. Banning people is only going to make things worse… ignorance is bliss, until it bites you in the arse.

83Man, your post is a bit ‘toys out of pram’ and a bit OTT in my eyes. If you don’t feel the conversation has any merit then either don’t read it, or don’t complain about it. fwiw, the thread is still churning through some very technical information that neither you or I knew about until now.

As for an independant appraisal like you ask for, I’ve had a DVA engine and was very very happy with it. However, Simon will point out it failed. I’ll point out it failed with head porosity. Simon will say that porosity doesn’t exist. I’ll then point out that simply replacing the head casting (which DVA did) solved the problem completely. My friend now has the engine and it’s going brilliantly. (which Simon will ignore). Welcome to the same conversation circa 2003/2004.

This winter I will probably get DVA to build me a Duratec to give him something different to do.

Bri

122

You guys seem have lost a grip on reality here. Dave Andrews has built hundreds of K series engines, he has done 300 + heads. He’s been doing them for years, we worked on mine together in 1998. His engines hold many power records and championships.

Yes, but all that glory can make someone settle on a building groove.
Simon comes from a fanatic point of view and criticizes imperfections.
I see it all makes sense.
Its’hard, I know, as any engine can fail given time, and it’s the failures that get analyzed.
The good thing is that analyzing them you can get to the root cause. All good in my point of view.



Why do let him get away with it ? Why don’t you ask him to publish, on here, the performance of all (or even some) of the engines he’s done ?

I wanted to, and if someone really wants them, I’m sure they can fins a way to get my plots, but Simon has asked me not to post them until the time is right (whenever that is).
Since I don’t have a problem and have got slagged anyway, I’m Ok with that.
But resumed, I would say the Honda has better low-midrange IMO attributable to the iVTEC (and with the extra weight).
And no, I’m not interested in a nice idle.



I can see I’m going to get banned

BTW, I think your post is good, no reason for that.

123

As for an independant appraisal like you ask for, I’ve had a DVA engine and was very very happy with it. However, Simon will point out it failed. I’ll point out it failed with head porosity. Simon will say that porosity doesn’t exist. I’ll then point out that simply replacing the head casting (which DVA did) solved the problem completely. My friend now has the engine and it’s going brilliantly. (which Simon will ignore). Welcome to the same conversation circa 2003/2004.

FWIW, Simon mentioned the head in my engine is the most porous one he has ever seen (and he has seen some junked ones due to porosity).
It is not an issue for me, as he has assured me it will never fail, or he will install a new one for me, FOC.

I can believe that, as my rebuild was started when I had a HGF and it was measured down to the incorrect liner heights.

One thing to consider is so many modified DVA heads being installed back in the engines where the block was never removed and the liner heights never measured/corrected. You can’t correct them with the engine in place.

But Dave isn’t forcing anyone to correct that before. And in my eyes he should ensure this is Ok.

So, if my porous head (I can see a joke coming) isn’t failing, then the head posority is not really an issue.

IMHO. (not that I care)

124

Uldis,

Liner heights are always measured. The plain fact is that many people simply do not want to pay to correct them. I have had some shims manufactured to sit under the liners and it is just possible to correct the liner heights using these or by manually decking the block with the engine in-situ, but I am not in a position to insist on anything, I can only try to persuade, sometimes this falls on deaf ears.

I certainly like the way you have used the sample of one porous head (your own) as proof that porosity is not a problem. Now I feel comfortable about ignoring the evidence of over 400 heads that I have seen and the ones that have failed due to porosity.

Dave

125

Obviously I was not understood.

My point was, could it be that, given two engines with equally (VERY) porous heads, one fails and the other one doesn’t? And if so, could it be that the unfailed one had proper liner heights?

In that case, could it be said that a porous head will fail if under wrong liner heights and the same will not if they’re right?

If so, the root cause was not the porosity but the liner height (substitute the latter for another possible cause, if any)

126

well I raced with a DVA head and Scholar 1800 block and its been faultless....only 192 BHP with 1447 cams! but faultless.Simon�s enginge is a ripp sonortor and it hasnt been mapped yet.And I will keep my DVA Scholar K Forover!

127

Uldis,

I know you mean well, but if you had read my previous posts you would see that only one of the heads that failed with porosity problems had low liners. The consistency was in the mode of failure not in the liner height issue. I appreciate that you want to contribute, but guesswork just clouds the whole issue and we will end up on the same well worn path of denial.

Having seen this many times it is quite straightforward for me to make a diagnosis. The puzzling thing is that individuals are disposed to deny a problem when they havent even set eyes on the head(s) in question.

Dave

128

Feel slightly humble that Dave and Simon are having another one of their robust debates on a thread I started!

Whatever the rights and wrongs, I find it fascinating reading when they get going!

LOL… me too

AFWIW… I am happy to keep my VHPD and when the time comes I’ll get another Rover K built ‘properly’ well at least I hope it will be ‘properly’ … in any case my current one has done 36000 miles.

129

Actually Pesky that’s exactly what you’ve done stuck your head in the sand,

That is totally incorrect,

he usually sticks his head up his arse!

Yep, & what I see looks better than the shite I’ve read on here today

[image]> Wirtualna Polska - Wszystko co ważne - www.wp.pl> [/image]

PMSL… Pesky, your library is absolutely awe inspiring … but you’ll not find it up there

130

By saying certain peoples car will wipe the floor with the Honda cars really relies on their driving abilities, and I for one don’t want to see your customers being potentially pressurised into driving beyond their abilities to try and prove a point, or even for them to become potential ‘targets’ for people to prove your engines are crap. Please keep those commenst for people who are racing with your engines in their cars and not for those who are doing trackdays as I certainly don’t want to see anyone racing on a trackday!

Simon
I’m a supporter of yours but I have to agree with MarkA on this point… please don’t add pressures like this to either side of the equation.

131

Uldis,

I know you mean well, but if you had read my previous posts you would see that only one of the heads that failed with porosity problems had low liners. The consistency was in the mode of failure not in the liner height issue. I appreciate that you want to contribute, but guesswork just clouds the whole issue and we will end up on the same well worn path of denial.

Having seen this many times it is quite straightforward for me to make a diagnosis. The puzzling thing is that individuals are disposed to deny a problem when they havent even set eyes on the head(s) in question.

Dave

Well, you guys sort it out then, until I see both myself

132

well I raced with a DVA head and Scholar 1800 block and its been faultless....only 192 BHP with 1447 cams! but faultless.Simon�s enginge is a ripp sonortor and it hasnt been mapped yet.And I will keep my DVA Scholar K Forover!

Jonny, what is a rip snorter? And… will you keep your other engine? in another car?

133

oops … multiple posts … sorry guys, but i just got round to reading this thread…

As usual, aside from the personal BS, its a rip snorter… or should that be ripp sonorter

134

Simon Thornley was mentioned in an earlier posting by Simon Erland to qulaify his statement that all his contacts dont consider me to be an engine builder.

I mentioned this to Simon Thornley and he has sent me this response to post

Hi Dave,

Still awaiting ‘verification’ from exiges.com so I can’t post a response.

However, in the meantime I will respond directly. Feel free to cut n paste & cross post if you wish.

Hi all,

Firstly please let me introduce myself,
My name is Simon Thornley, I worked for Powertrain (MG-Rover) for 29yrs mostly in engine development but more recently as a ‘test specialist’ who introduced several advanced testing techniques across the K Series family.

I very seldom post any information on these type of forums but as my name has been used by Simon Erland in a post on this thread I felt a response was necessary.

Firstly let me point out that at no time have I ever worked or even met with Mr Erland, if fact the first time I ever spoke to Simon was late last night when he called me at home.

We spoke freely about the K Series engine, something that I’ve not been allowed to previously do but now I’m no longer employed by Powertrain it’s possible.

Simon then went on to ‘knock’ several after market engine builders including Dave Andrews.

During this conversation I replied that I didn’t know Dave was doing that many complete engines as I always associated his work to be mainly focused on the ‘breathing’ aspect namely head work etc. (where the power’s made after all)

In much the same way I consider Tesco’s to be a grocers not an electrical store.
How Simon then arrives at the statement that I do not consider Dave an engine builder is frankly quite shocking & upsetting.

I would like to say on record that I hold Dave in the highest esteem, his work that he has done for me & other fellow engine development engineers & competitors back at Longbridge is of the highest standard & on top of that he is a genuinely top bloke.

The top ends on all my sprint engines owe something to Dave, whether just free info & advice
from his legendary web pages or actually rectifying my best attempts at porting a big valve head.
I commissioned Dave to port a MS2 head 2 seasons back from a new casting, the head was a work of art & was bench tested for flow back at Longbridge whilst it was in been 'ultra-sealed. The flow results were outstanding.

Please don’t ask for the flow rates as I don’t have them.

Sadly I never had the chance to run this head due to the fact I was suffering a dire traction problem with the car (Westfield) using list 1a tyres on the existing engines ouput.

The traction problem is now mostly sorted (if it ever can be on 1a’s!!!) by increasing the anti squat geo. so I’m now on the search for more power.
Needless to say the first person I spoke too in my search was Dave.
Without going into too many details Dave will be doing some additional work on the head which will involve the fitting of larger inserts. He will also be helping out with the bottom end including piston machining. I have high expectations & I know Dave can be relied on to deliver on quality, cost & timing.

My championship winning car proudly displays the DVA logo down its flanks. Hopefully next season if Dave agrees it will appear with much larger DVA logos so everyone can see where my loyalties lie.

I have no wish to enter any slanging match & I have no intention of posting again on his forum. But I would like to make a public plea to Simon.

Simon, I wish you well with your future plans you come across as a very knowledgeable engineer but please do not contact me again either by phone or e-mail. I am very upset that my name has been used in a statement that was completely misleading.

Thanky you for reading, I hope this has cleared up this issue.

Best Regards,

Simon Thornley.

Thank you Simon for putting that into perspective.

Nuff said.

135

As I’ve said before, the man defends himself well!

136

This is all irrelevant now. I want an electric conversion for my Exige.

See the vid.

http://www.kron4.com/Global/story.asp?S=4122234&nav=5D7lBwNh

137

One of the first ever electric conversions WAS for an Elise (made it to Tomorrow’s World and everything!).

I believe the battery weight effectively killed it though.

Ian

138

Dave, interesting as usual.
I get the impression Simon, being as enthusiastic as he is mentiones names and conversations in his way.
Reading on the reply I see no harm as mention you’re not an engine builder, but a head porter. It seems that others would interpret it another, offensive way.

Anyway, one for you.

139

Uldis,

I think that you need to read the rest of the thread to put that post into context, especially since he mentions his contacts ‘who dont believe a word I say’. I have spoken with some of them, but more about that anon.

Enthusiasm is all well and good, however posting misleading information in support of your own personal agenda is patently not. I have huge reserves of both tolerance and patience, but neither are inexhaustable.

Simon’s posts are full of insults, errors, supposition, misleading statements, inaccuracies, exaggeration, guesswork, contradictions and in some cases downright lies. And I far from the only person who thinks so.

Dave