Dammit! Popcorn’s run out…
The last post really knocks it on the head for me as far as credibility goes… Randy a joker? Hmmm… Think you’re on your own with that one King K.
Simon,
I hope the people you are quoteing are happy for you to do so, as a few people you have quoted in the past were less than impressed when I spoke to them (I’m willing to bet you’ve had at least 1 phonecall), and these are people who know how to build the K-series, one of whom has produced some of the most powerful ones out there, in fact one of the very powerful very reliable engines you keep mentioning as if it was your own.
As I have said to you in the past, your not the only one with ‘contacts’ at LB, I actually spent 5 years working there, not just visiting occasionally.
As for your comments on what is faster, to a certain extent it’s irrelevant, I mean my (now ex-)VHPD’d engined Exige was faster at numerous circuits than a number of Honda engined cars, in fact it was faster round Spa than most of the Porsche 911GT3 RS’s that were there, but I am under no illusion about the Exige being faster as a car, it’s just the fact I can drive the car fairly quickly having spent most of my time at LB pedling test cars at and beyond their limits. However there are occasions where a 160bhp Elise is as fast as me (never faster, obviously ). While on track with various Honda powered cars it was quite obvious that I had no chance on the straights, the Honda was quite a bit quicker once the speed started to rise, the SC version was just stupidly quick.
However if I drove someones Honda powered Elise/Exige (as I have done a few times), I may have been faster, but similarly I may have been slower, it really depends on how the car is set-up and how hard I would be prepared to push it.
By saying certain peoples car will wipe the floor with the Honda cars really relies on their driving abilities, and I for one don’t want to see your customers being potentially pressurised into driving beyond their abilities to try and prove a point, or even for them to become potential ‘targets’ for people to prove your engines are crap. Please keep those commenst for people who are racing with your engines in their cars and not for those who are doing trackdays as I certainly don’t want to see anyone racing on a trackday!
I really don’t understand you TBH, you could potentially be a great asset to the Elise/Exige/Caterham/MGF etc community if you just stopped trying to wind everyone up and just go about building engines and getting some decent results, as I am sure you will get a few well dones, just don’t try and be unrealistic with your claims.
My car will not recieve a K-series to replace the one with the knackered big-end bearings, despite the fact I have always been a strong supported of the K, probably my loyalty to Longbridge, but with all the trackdays and european trips I do I can’t take the chance to have a year like this one where I have missed a considerable number of great trackdays after my car has let me down (Dijon & Magny Cours just aren’t the same in a Diesel Fiesta) . I know what to do to solve most of the reliability issues, but at the end of the day I’d rather spend similar money and fit a less stressed engine.
I’ll probably get one of your infamous ranting emails now as I have done when I’ve disagreed with you in the past, don’t bother, I’m just not interested.
BTW Joe McCarthy is the self proclaimed king of the K-series (Honda Version) in a Lotus, who also claims to produce unrealistic figures, he was proved wrong.
By saying certain peoples car will wipe the floor with the Honda cars really relies on their driving abilities, and I for one don’t want to see your customers being potentially pressurised into driving beyond their abilities to try and prove a point, or even for them to become potential ‘targets’ for people to prove your engines are crap. Please keep those commenst for people who are racing with your engines in their cars and not for those who are doing trackdays as I certainly don’t want to see anyone racing on a trackday!
Excellent point, very well made.
I know for a fact that Gav Kershaw driving a standard Elise would be faster round a circuit than me in a 250bhp Exige. He would also be faster than 90% of Elise/Exige owners, which is nice…
Simon… good to see you’re still as crazy as ever.
Was going to say hello at the TunerGP but you weren’t there for some reason. Weird.
Incidentally, DVAs entry was by far the fastest N/A car there, both around the track and on the qtr mile.
Brian
why not give him a call and ask his take?
Must have been thousands ���
I know this forum doesn’t have a poll function, but hey…
Hypothetical Question:
Faced with an expired VHPD, who here would pay to have the engine expertly rebuilt, in the interests of originality, rather than convert to a Honda or one of the other options?
This is a question that’s occupied me for some time. The VHPD in my car is fine (touch wood), but I just know that some day it may expire.
As good as the Honda conversions are, the non originality would always bother me. I know I’m probably in a minority here, but does anyone else feel like this?
I think the VHPD actually has character and a vulnerability that makes it interesting to own, whereas the Hondas are simply crushingly capable and efficient.
It probably all hinges on how you use your car, when all said and done.What do you reckon?
Alex,
Im a big fan ok the K and like the keep it original idea…
I have stuck with mine because of competition rules. If they didn’t require a K series I may not have one though…
I’ve also done a lot of work on your engine - for free for your car’s previous owner. It did a good few thousand for him (don’t beleive the speedo!) before he sold it.
I’ve been passager in a 220bhp Honda S2 Elise, and have driven Marchhares car. So heres an honest review:
The honda felt brutally quick, but when you looked at the speedo you weren’t actually going as fast as you might expect if you’re used to how fast you go in each of the Rover CR box’s gears. But it is still very very fast, you just use the gearbox more.
I found Marchhare’s car not to feel fast and when you looked at the speedo you weren’t going fast either! It was very smooth to drive, but had an appaulingly unsmooth idle - nothing like I’ve seen from all the other tuned K’s I’ve experienced that run multiple throttle bodies. It was notrceably worse than the idle that is possible from the Exige throttle bodies - however this engine uses Jenvey TBs, which due to the throttle butterflys being closer to the cyliner head, should give a better idle.
To drive on light throttle, Marchhares car didn’t have the razor sharp throttle response you’d expect from a car on throttle bodies, and had no more low rpm performance than my engine, which below 3000rpm has slightly less power than Marchhares.
The Honda car will outperform the engine in Marchhare’s car. Being a fan of the K I would want Marchhare’s car to be quicker, but it won’t be.
SEOT
Mark a
Really disappointed in your post - fit a less stressed engine - have you understood nothing of what I have written?
Simon,
I understand most of what you have written and most makes sense, when you stop slagging people off and ranting, but no matter how well you balance the K-series, and no matter how much money you throw at it, it is still an engine at the limits of it’s design, and probably beyond them in some cases. The engine was never designed to be a 250bhp screamer, the Honda/Audi/Duratec are all designed to have the bhp that they achieve when fitted into a Lotus (before modification), remember a 250bhp 1.8k-series is producing double the bhp figure it was designed to achieve (i.e. 118bhp), the Honda for example is an off the shelf 200bhp engine coupled to a 6-speed gearbox.
I have 2 big problems with my VHPD this year, the 1st was a clutch bearing related problem and the 2nd was the big ends, neither could be attributed to actual problems with the K-series, the clutch bearing was a freak sudden failure and the big ends was probably due to oil on minimum, high G bend in Zandvoort and no baffled sump.
However at the end of the day I could pay �6-7k and build a 1.9k which was plan No.1 or go for a conversion for similar money which, if I blow the engine up on will cost me approx �1500 for a replacement engine, whereas a K-series blow up will cost �6-7k to replace again, I can’t afford those sort of bills (I’ve had to sell stuff to be able to afford it now) so not prepared to take the risk.
And as far as poeple at East Works are concerned - nope no calls complaining, quite a few very very happy about all this effort - spoke to Alan Warbarton most days this week, why not give him a call and ask his take?
simon
Who said anything about East Works? Most of the best guys at building modded engines at LB are no longer working there.
Here’s my take on this. If we use the past as an example of what the future may hold. A friend of mine bought a Jag X150 10 or so years ago. The car had been raced at some point in its life and ended up I suppose with the modern equivalent of a Honda conversion. He found it slowly rusting away at a wreckers in NZ. He’s spent the last 10 years or so gradually buying parts to restore to its original condition. It’s easy to say to yourself what on earth was the owner thinking who replaced the engine and chopped the bodywork, but back then (sometime in the 60’s) the car wasn’t worth much and who would have thought 30 years later it would be a classic. The original engine is long gone.
So with this in mind, I’ve kept the original engine and since the Honda conversion doesn’t change anything structurally there’s no reason why it cannot be converted back to its original condition someday. So today I enjoy all the benefits of the Honda but should the need arise in the future the car can be made original again. If you put the engine to one side I believe all the conversions can be reversed easily as none made any structural changes.
DING DING DING DING - I’m going down the same route on a Std S1 Elise, but I’m also going to keep all the standard installation with the car. Best of both worlds as far as I can tell. (Hopefully) effortless performance of a conversion (not a Honda in this case though) for me to enjoy now with possible resale on a complete and standard car if or when the time comes.
On another note, when it comes to comparison with BTCC I’d rather have had a Honda in 2005. It may or may not have had the odd failure, but it was good enough to match other efforts from full works outfits as proven by both outright wins (i.e. sufficient performance) and overrall championships (i.e. sufficient reliability). The Rover may have been underfunded, so at best you can try to argue it may have had potential, but you are hard pushed to say it can outperform the Honda.
Personally whilst I have strong views on what has been posted, I think now is a good time to attempt to wipe the slate clean. KingK should only quote figures from engines and components that have already been developed and that he is able to publish information for. Everyone should agree as far as possible to not bring up cases that have already been discussed. I doubt that things will remain civil for long, but it’s worth a try (perhaps some aggressive admin control, although thats controversial?).
With regard to a VHPD rebuild vs conversion I reckon it depends on how much of a VHPD rebuild you require. The main reason I’m looking at a conversion is I can get a lot of the conversion bits very cheaply, however to get throttle bodies, oil cooler, new headers etc would cost me a lot for the K only to end up with something with less power. Obviously you already have a lot of the performance goodies on an Exige, so when the time comes you choice will be made by the amount of power you want, plus the size of the failure / rebuild cost. If you are happy with the power currently acheived then it is obviously likely a rebuild would be the most cost effective solution.
Oh and professional is spelt with one ‘f’!!
And spelt is spelt thus… sorry couldn’t resist, no offence intended
Oh and it’s Hepworth and Grandage, not Hopton and Grandage and Vandervell, not Vanderbilt.
Dave
And spelt is spelt thus… sorry couldn’t resist, no offence intended >
Dave
A very fair point well made!!
Note to self, spell check all posts with reference to correct spelling!
PS Original post edited to look slightly less of a dick…
Butts
scuffham
Either you’re the rudest or the most arrogant man alive. Maybe a bit of both. You’ve repeatedly been pulled up on calling people by their surnames and your own personal nicknames for people. It’s just plain rude.
Nothing to do with engines and for that I apologise. I suggest you take some time off from measuring ovality and learn some manners. They may serve you well.
Brian
Do you really think we would be willing to hand over our cars keys to your idiot bum chums at Evo? These guys are the King of misinformation� only second to you.
Interestingly they did mention Simon Erland to various people at the TunerGP. I won’t repeat what was said though… it’s bad form.
Also, as luck would have it… a friend of mine knows Adrian Newey very well so we’ll get to hear about this fabulous new engine from the horses mouth.
On another note, when it comes to comparison with BTCC I’d rather have had a Honda in 2005. It may or may not have had the odd failure, but it was good enough to match other efforts from full works outfits as proven by both outright wins (i.e. sufficient performance) and overrall championships (i.e. sufficient reliability). The Rover may have been underfunded, so at best you can try to argue it may have had potential, but you are hard pushed to say it can outperform the Honda.
Not aure I agree with that, that K was pretty good. But it is a good point about how proving things on a race track is about all the elements of the team (set-up, drivers, etc) and not just the engine.
Ian
I repeat DVA…do you have a Judd BTCC engine with you…
Because I do…
And the inlet port core as I just wrote is the only difference in the castingsThe significant fact is there were only 20 cast, they were all cast in the same way on the production line at the Longbridge foundry therefore subject to the same aluminium gas content as the production heads - were there an issue that the Longbridge casting process threw up, they would only have needed to get Zeus or Grainger and Worrell to cast those few heads, both foundries are regularly doing small casting runs of prototype casting for Rover - or were, with significantly different core moulds.
As far as the liners are concerned the measurements you posted match the old GKN liner superceeded because Rover could never get them made to tolerance…with the Goetze liners in 1998. It’s a mystery to me how PTP could have built all the VHPDs in 2000/2002 with a liner that was acknowleged to be inadequate, that was no longer stocked at Longbridge, and had gone out of production years earlier.Marks engine would have had Goetze liners - had you still had them you would have seen the markings, they even have different machining to both the old GKN liner and the dodgy Indian ones.
First rule of engine building DVA - know what you are doing!
simon [image]> http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b323/SimonErland/P1000585.jpg> [/image] [image]> http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b323/SimonErland/P1000617.jpg> [/image]
Simon
Would you like to tell us what parts of the Judd engine are standard K series production ? All I can think of would be the flywheel bolts but I could be wrong on that.
Bernard
Not aure I agree with that, that K was pretty good. But it is a good point about how proving things on a race track is about all the elements of the team (set-up, drivers, etc) and not just the engine.
Ian
I agree, there are plenty of good engines that fail to win championships (I have plenty of first hand experience!!). However, whilst I’ve seen plenty of good engines lose championships I’ve never seen a crap engine win one. i.e. It may not be the best engine that wins a championship, but the engine that does win is always pretty good. I would be very surprised if the BTCC K was a superior engine to the Honda - it’s possible, but unlikely. Given the amount of success ballast the Hondas had to haul around for much of the season I don’t think there is too much evidence to suggest the K had a power advantage. I’d be very disappointed if the WSR Team didn’t have the base car on the weight limit / ballasted to the weight limit, so any pull out of a slow speed corner should be a reasonable test of engine performance (because aero and chassis effects are limited).
If I were setting up a team, I don’t think I’d have too many sleepless nights having a Honda!
Cheers,
Chris
I missed this little snippet…
"As far as the liners are concerned the measurements you posted match the old GKN liner superceeded because Rover could never get them made to tolerance…with the Goetze liners in 1998. It’s a mystery to me how PTP could have built all the VHPDs in 2000/2002 with a liner that was acknowleged to be inadequate, that was no longer stocked at Longbridge, and had gone out of production years earlier.
Marks engine would have had Goetze liners - had you still had them you would have seen the markings, they even have different machining to both the old GKN liner and the dodgy Indian ones.
First rule of engine building DVA - know what you are doing!
simon "
Gawsh, you realy must be desperate Simon, where on earth have I mentioned GKN liners? Had you read my post you would see that I mention the liner manufacturers name, ‘Goetze’ quite clearly and of course these were the liners measured, together with a sample of AE liners. Let me type it slowly so that you will read it slowly, then you might actually take it in.
The liners I got from Rover and were measured were marked Goetze, G-O-E-T-Z-E, get it? Not GKN G-K-N, got that? good.
Are really niaive enough to think that when the Goetze liners were introduced all the stocks of GKN liners were instantly scrapped? Mmm… reality check, it was possible a good two years after the Goetze liners were introduced to be sold GKN liners, especially if you asked for VHPD liners.
If the measurements from the Goetze liners match the old GKN ones then I’d suggest that either the old GKN ones werent as bad as described, or , more likely , the new ones are just as bad quality as the old and that, once again , Rover has a quality control problem on it’s hands (or had since they no longer exist.) It would seem that Rover are/were no better at providing a proper supply of quality liners than anyone else.
Dave