Guys,
Why are Nitrons so much better than standard shocks and why don’t they come as standard or at least an option ?
I have heard many people have upgraded pads to Pagids (not sure about spelling) Are they better ? Why and how much do they cost.
Thanks
Henry
Nitrons are an improvement for the S1, not sure about S2. They are adjustable (25 steps of adjustment - hard great for track, soft on the road) as well as having better damping control, which means you can run stiffer springs for no loss. The std items on the S1 are cheap, which is why something like them is not on there to start with. Lotus std upgrade is Ohlins, but they cost more.
Pagids are theorically racing pads (says so on the box). They’ll probably wear the disks quicker (but I’ve not had a major issue on that front). To me they’re a great safety upgrade on top of performance. They work from cold and last well, although they can squeal a bit (just adds to teh race car-ness of it all). �200 for all 4 corners. There are other makes that work as well but they tend to wear out much quicker. Pay the money I say.
Ian
Pagids are theorically racing pads (says so on the box). They’ll probably wear the disks quicker (but I’ve not had a major issue on that front). To me they’re a great safety upgrade on top of performance. They work from cold and last well, although they can squeal a bit (just adds to teh race car-ness of it all). �200 for all 4 corners. There are other makes that work as well but they tend to wear out much quicker. Pay the money I say.
Ian
Hi Ian, what would you go for, Pagids 14’s or 42’s? I’m thinking I’ll be doing at least 5 track days a year plus some driver training.
Are Pagids too hard for standard discs? If so what discs do you recommend? I don’t really want to change the discs for the sake of it… but if I need to I might as well get the best.
No, they’re not too hard or abrasive.
But they squeal like a pig! Unbearable if you drive in traffic, light brake applications.
There is new Pagid compound now RS 29, apparently as good as 14’s in terms of performance but last longer and squeal less.
Definately available in fronts, not sure about the rears
No, they’re not too hard or abrasive.
But they squeal like a pig! Unbearable if you drive in traffic, light brake applications.
I agree, but feel squeal pretty much goes after a while.
The new pads sound interesting but I think the 14s are pretty good already. Interested to see how somebody else finds them. I don’t know about 42s and wouldn’t want to take the backwards step from the 14s.
Ian
Standard shocks are very poor quality and the valving isn’t too clever either. Cheap and nasty basically. The Nitrons are a very good quality shocks for a very reasonable price and the standard valving is very good. Just to add to IDG’s comments, there won’t be much difference between the ideal road setting and the ideal track setting on the dampers so don’t go winding them right up just because you are on a race track.
Padgid pads are all excellent. On my road car I currently use 42’s on the front and 14’s on the rear, the 14’s have more stopping power which gives the effect of more rear brake bias which is desirable.
On the race car we run 29’s and the drop in performance from 14’s is negligable and the wear rate is greatly reduced. To put this into perspective we just did a 24 hour race with only one pad change. I don’t know how the perform on the road but I imagine they are excellent like all the other padgids. I’ve been through OEM, green stuffs and SBS pads and none are even near the padgids for performance.
Thanks Randy,
So for my S2 for fast road use and track days which combination of Pagids would you recomend ?
I have come to the fold from Kart racing so am use to breaking very late and finishing off the braking in the first part of the corner.
My first track day was excellent but noticed the brakes were not as good as they could be.
The handling of my S2 is so much better than any road car that I have ever driven so I will learn to drive it better before thinking about suspension but yours and IDG’s explanation said it all.
Thanks for that.
Henry
probably best to go for a set of 14’s to start with, well tried and tested. The other thing is that the Lotus discs are made from cheese so its worth upgrading those too. Worst part is that the left/right discs are identical meaning that on one side the cooling vents turn in the wrong direction .
The standard S2 shocks are far better than the S1’s so no need to upgrade unless you want to go for stiffer spring rates at some point.
So Randy, 29’s at the front and 14’s rear were good? or you’re running 29’s all around?
Basically do the 29’s ahve a slightly lower CF or the way they bite is slightly different? (ideally you’d want them to behave much like the 14’s -if combining them- over a different temp range so there are no nasty surprises)
The 29’s have a slightly lower coefficient of friction but the wear rate is far less. Ive gone from 14’s to 29’s (all round) on both the Elise and the Nissan and can bearly tell the difference in pedal feel/retardation but the wear rate is greatly improved.
So what’s the difference then with the 42’s?
Just to add to IDG’s comments, there won’t be much difference between the ideal road setting and the ideal track setting on the dampers so don’t go winding them right up just because you are on a race track.
I’ve definately found a difference better between hard and soft. Hard (not quite full) was much better on track and soft (again not quite full) certainly helps with those potholes on the way home.
Ian
Define better?
Couldn’t it be a psychologycal thing? track=hard?
I’ve always been a fan of correct damping, and not necessarily hard.
When I went on track with Randy at Croft I noticed how good his suspension felt on Nitrons, which (as pax) I had never liked them before (felt too much bump damping for not enough rebound on most people’s cars).
Therefore my impression that I wanted the dual adjustables.
But Randy’s suspension felt very compliant, and he told me why: even though running it on harder than average springs, his damping is set to very soft, in fact getting rid of the extra bump damping and he was too of the opinion that the dampers needed some more rebound damping.
So, like he mentioned, I don’t see a need of having a much different setup on the track than on the road.
Unless you explain me why you like it hard?
Define better?
I’m not posh about my settings. At Bedford, when AndyD twiddled my knobs I kept and open mind and took it out for a thrash - I smiled more! That’s what I call better. It felt more planted, rolled less, was easier to catch slides more gracefully. But I agree, it could do with more control on the rebound.
But boy did I wish I’d set it to soft for the way home!
I’m not saying you’re wrong, I fully suspect I will find somewhere between very soft and very hard that I like even more. Just haven’t tried playing with them enough yet. I just didn’t want people to get the idea that the adjusters don’t do much, because I think they do.
Ian
I just didn’t want people to get the idea that the adjusters don’t do much, because I think they do.
Ian
They definately do!
This is turning into another Nitron discussion…
On a single way Nitron the adjuster primarily adjusts rebound but also has a far lesser effect on bump. On the particular set I have, with 400/550 spring I have found the front has slightly too much bump and I have wound the rebound down to probably below what is ideal to reduce this. On the rear I run 3-4 clicks off full soft on rebound and the bump is spot on.
These setting will not be the same for everyone though. Firstly Nitron have used various different basic valving over the years so not everyones shocks will have the same adjustment range. Also, shock setting are very dependant on things like spring rate and tyre construction which play a major roll in the suspension system on any car.
So there you go, different valvings, so not really comparable.
Hmmm, maybe it means that I don’t need the two ways if I can get some one-ways with a bit more rebound?
Hmmm…
Back to the Pagids…
I just changed a full set of RS14s yesterday and was surprised to see how the brass rivets (I assume thats what they are!) are showing through to the surface of the pad after only a few mm of wear. I didn’t get a gauge out for an exact measure but comparing a used set with a brand new pair, the difference was only the thickness of the metal backing plate on a single pad.
I’m now wondering whether I changed them too early and the soft brass is meant to be worn away by the harder steel disc with no detriment to the overall braking performance?
When do other people change theirs?
Yep, chenge them only when they’ve got about 1mm, just before they get to the plate…