Whatever.
Whatever.
You are Vicki Pollard, I claim my 5 quid.
PMSL
Whatever.
You are Vicki Pollard, I claim my 5 quid.
[image]littlebritain.tv
No but yeah but yeah but yeah no but yeah no but yeah…
Yeah but I ain’t bovvered…
I have just returned from Delta Engineering in Daventry where I have had some liners measured, Delta are a precision engineering company who make engine parts for (amongst others) Ilmor, Cosworth, McClaren, and several BTCC teams. The MD Brian Smith is a first class engineer and has been in the business for 30+ years. From time to time he undertakes small precision jobs for me. The accuracy required on many of the parts he makes is down to just a few microns.
A micron is 1 millionth of a metre or 1/25th of a thou (.000039").
He knows nothing about the origin of the liners he measured and their identities were unknown to him while he was doing the measuring.
I took
A new AE liner picked at random from a batch of 50 or so numbered one
A new Goetze liner (OE Rover) picked at random from a batch of 50 or so, numbered two
A used Goetze liner 2,000 miles numbered three
A used GKN liner 11,000 miles numbered four
The measurements taken were
i) Step height from shoulder to top of liner, stated dimension 50.01mm
ii) Diameter of lower section, stated 84.10mm, these measurements were at the top and bottom of the liner and at right angles to establish out of round
iii) Bore diameter, stated at 80.00mm, taken at the top and bottom of the liner and at right angles, these were taken with a proper bore micrometer that he uses on F1 liners.
Results
Number one liner (AE)
i) Step height 49.996mm , 14 microns short , approx 0.55 thou short
ii) Diameter of lower section 84.0994 at the top by 84.0987 less than one micron undersize, 1 micron is 0.04 thou and 10 microns (0.40 thou) out of round, Diameter of lower section at the bottom 84.0949 by 84.0941, so less than 5 microns (1/5th of a thou) taper
iii) Bore size 80.025 x 80.038 , 1.5 thou over stated size.
Number two liner (Goetze, Rover OEM)
i) Step height 50.018, 8 microns over, approx .32 thou over sized. Overall .8 thou taller than the AE liner
ii) Diameter of lower section 84.0990 at the top by 84.0982 , 10 microns undersize, 10 microns is 0.40 thou and 1 micron out of round (.04 thou), Diameter of lower section at the bottom 84.0700 by 84.0693, 29 microns taper (1.2thou).
iii) Bore size 80.025 by 80.035, 1.3 thou over stated size.
Number three liner (2000 mile Goetze liner)
i) step height 50.001mm, 9 microns short, approx 0.35 thou undersize, overall 0.2 thou taller than the AE liner
ii) Diameter of lower section was within 2 microns of the new Goetze liner, the taper was the same, ovality the same.
iii) Bore size was not measured as these were used liners.
Number four liner (11,000 mile GKN liner)
i) Step height 50.000mm, 10 microns short, approx 0.39 thou undersize, over all 0.15 thou taller than the AE liner
ii) Diamter of lower section top 84.12 by 84.036, 22 microns (.86 thou) undersize, Diameter of lower section bottom 84.099 by 83.998 so massively oval - 84 microns (3.3thou) and tapered by 30 microns (1.1 thou)
iii) Bore size was not measured as these were used liners.
In conclusion, the lower section of the AE liner (the dimension in dispute) is slightly larger than the Goetze liner by 9 microns (0.35 thou) and it is more parallel exhibiting 5 microns taper (0.19 thou) compared to the Goetze liner which has a taper of 29 microns (1.14 thou). This means that the AE liner will be a better fit in the block than a Rover OE one rather than a poorer fit as suggested. The out of round on the Goetze liner is better with a figure of only 1 micron (0.04 thou), whereas the AE liner is 10 microns (.4 thou) out of round. The bore measurements show both liners to be pretty much the same WRT size and ovality with the AE liner being 3 microns 0.01 thou more out of round that the Goetze liner.
Basically the liners are pretty much identical to all intents and purposes, there are no major discrepancies between them on any of the dimensions, with the most critical measurement, the lower external OD being better and more consistent on the AE liner.
As far as I can see there is no significant difference between the AE and Goetze (Rover OE) liners, certainly not enough to affect their fit in a properly machined Rover block.
This is the 4th time I have had AE and Goetze liners measured, but this time Delta are happy to have their name published alongside the figures and will stand by them.
As soon as I have the AE liners that came from MarchHares engine I will have them measured at the same place.
I do not intend to have them measured again since it costs real money and I am very happy that the measurements were taken with great accuracy and repeatability. I have already wasted enough valuable time proving what I know to be the truth in all sorts of areas due to timewasters and the verbally incontinent who have been proven to be lying.
If the involved parties don’t accept these measurements I see that as their problem not mine. Brian is happy to confirm these measurements to any interested parties, but please don’t waste his valuable time.
Dave
Whatever.
You are Vicki Pollard, I claim my 5 quid.
[image]> littlebritain.tv> [/image]
No but yeah but yeah but yeah no but yeah no but yeah…
Vicki Pollard - well known for talking a lot, but saying nothing…
DVA’s post above is very different - he talks a lot too, but everything he says is worth reading…
Thanks for the feedback.
Just a quick note to say that AE liners are now being sold by PTP and Rover dealerships (amongst others) as ‘OE’ replacements and are being supplied to them by Federal Mogul as ‘OE’ replacements.
Dave
"an inferior iron "
So what is the spec on the AE iron and the goetze OE iron?
I have not used an AE liners for the last 18 months as a precaution while I await a proper response from FM. However it leaves scant choice…
Dave
am i right in saying that our two fellow “k nuts” agree on something
This is very dissconcerning info for me since I plan on rebuilding my VHPD this winter. Does this mean there are no proper liners available at this time to get the job done right? I would hate to pull my motor down and only have substandard parts available to reassemble it with.
David or Simon, what liners do you currently use to build standard bore K’s and where do you source them?
Is there an over bore option available at the moment worth considering?
Many thanks for any info you guys can give me.
I procured a supply of Goetze liners which is now exhausted, I have had them on order since January 2006 and delivery promises continue to slip…
I would be interested in the answer to johnboy’s question re the material spec. My own enquiries within AE have elicited a very different response. I no longer use AE liners because there has been criticism of their use.
My own findings showed them to be perfectly acceptable dimensionally. I have also made enquiries of other engine builders who have no qualms about their use. I have not had them metallurgically tested.
I will pass the comments on to my contacts and glean their reaction.
Dave
King_t,
Why dont you repost one the many many, many, many, many other postings where I have posted measurements of both Goetze and AE liners taken by professional engineers who are prepared to stand by them (more than you have done) ?
The information about the source of the liners came from directly within Federal Mogul / AE themselves, I had no reason to doubt information as given.
As I have already posted I have not used any AE liners since your criticism of them and while I wait for a definitive reply from AE so your posting is both entirely pointless and provocative as usual.
Dave
How about this one…
I have just returned from Delta Engineering in Daventry where I have had some liners measured, Delta are a precision engineering company who make engine parts for (amongst others) Ilmor, Cosworth, McClaren, and several BTCC teams. The MD Brian Smith is a first class engineer and has been in the business for 30+ years. From time to time he undertakes small precision jobs for me. The accuracy required on many of the parts he makes is down to just a few microns.
A micron is 1 millionth of a metre or 1/25th of a thou (.000039").
He knows nothing about the origin of the liners he measured and their identities were unknown to him while he was doing the measuring.
I took
A new AE liner picked at random from a batch of 50 or so numbered one
A new Goetze liner (OE Rover) picked at random from a batch of 50 or so, numbered two
A used Goetze liner 2,000 miles numbered three
A used GKN liner 11,000 miles numbered fourThe measurements taken were
i) Step height from shoulder to top of liner, stated dimension 50.01mm
ii) Diameter of lower section, stated 84.10mm, these measurements were at the top and bottom of the liner and at right angles to establish out of round
iii) Bore diameter, stated at 80.00mm, taken at the top and bottom of the liner and at right angles, these were taken with a proper bore micrometer that he uses on F1 liners.Results
Number one liner (AE)
i) Step height 49.996mm , 14 microns short , approx 0.55 thou short
ii) Diameter of lower section 84.0994 at the top by 84.0987 less than one micron undersize, 1 micron is 0.04 thou and 10 microns (0.40 thou) out of round, Diameter of lower section at the bottom 84.0949 by 84.0941, so less than 5 microns (1/5th of a thou) taper
iii) Bore size 80.025 x 80.038 , 1.5 thou over stated size.Number two liner (Goetze, Rover OEM)
i) Step height 50.018, 8 microns over, approx .32 thou over sized. Overall .8 thou taller than the AE liner
ii) Diameter of lower section 84.0990 at the top by 84.0982 , 10 microns undersize, 10 microns is 0.40 thou and 1 micron out of round (.04 thou), Diameter of lower section at the bottom 84.0700 by 84.0693, 29 microns taper (1.2thou).
iii) Bore size 80.025 by 80.035, 1.3 thou over stated size.
Number three liner (2000 mile Goetze liner)i) step height 50.001mm, 9 microns short, approx 0.35 thou undersize, overall 0.2 thou taller than the AE liner
ii) Diameter of lower section was within 2 microns of the new Goetze liner, the taper was the same, ovality the same.
iii) Bore size was not measured as these were used liners.Number four liner (11,000 mile GKN liner)
i) Step height 50.000mm, 10 microns short, approx 0.39 thou undersize, over all 0.15 thou taller than the AE liner
ii) Diamter of lower section top 84.12 by 84.036, 22 microns (.86 thou) undersize, Diameter of lower section bottom 84.099 by 83.998 so massively oval - 84 microns (3.3thou) and tapered by 30 microns (1.1 thou)
iii) Bore size was not measured as these were used liners.
In conclusion, the lower section of the AE liner (the dimension in dispute) is slightly larger than the Goetze liner by 9 microns (0.35 thou) and it is more parallel exhibiting 5 microns taper (0.19 thou) compared to the Goetze liner which has a taper of 29 microns (1.14 thou). This means that the AE liner will be a better fit in the block than a Rover OE one rather than a poorer fit as suggested. The out of round on the Goetze liner is better with a figure of only 1 micron (0.04 thou), whereas the AE liner is 10 microns (.4 thou) out of round. The bore measurements show both liners to be pretty much the same WRT size and ovality with the AE liner being 3 microns 0.01 thou more out of round that the Goetze liner.Basically the liners are pretty much identical to all intents and purposes, there are no major discrepancies between them on any of the dimensions, with the most critical measurement, the lower external OD being better and more consistent on the AE liner.
As far as I can see there is no significant difference between the AE and Goetze (Rover OE) liners, certainly not enough to affect their fit in a properly machined Rover block.
This is the 4th time I have had AE and Goetze liners measured, but this time Delta are happy to have their name published alongside the figures and will stand by them.
As soon as I have the AE liners that came from MarchHares engine I will have them measured at the same place.
I do not intend to have them measured again since it costs real money and I am very happy that the measurements were taken with great accuracy and repeatability. I have already wasted enough valuable time proving what I know to be the truth in all sorts of areas due to timewasters and the verbally incontinent who have been proven to be lying.
If the involved parties don’t accept these measurements I see that as their problem not mine. Brian is happy to confirm these measurements to any interested parties, but please don’t waste his valuable time.
Dave
Or this one…
In order to ensure that I am not going mad , I took some liners to a different local engineering company who were making some valve guide pilots for me, they do precision engineering for Cosworth, Ilmor and a number of BTCC teams.
They measured a new AE liner, a new Goetze liner, A used Goetze liner and a used GKN liner that I removed from a running engine two days ago.
They could find no material difference between any of them, the AE liner was a tiny bit shorter than the others on the lower part and was around 4 or 5 microns larger (1/6th of a thou) on the lower ID than the Goetze liner. All the others were within 3 or 4 microns (1/8th of a thou) of each other. I have measured them myself a number of times.
I will be copying my findings and the various postings to my contact within AE for their response, rest assured that when I get it, it will be published here.
I have invited various of the interested parties to come and measure them personally with verified equipment I have here. So far I have had no response.
AE are not a tinpot company and judging by my contact’s reaction to the statements here will not take it lying down.
Dave
One of several…
To be honest I am more convinced by the results of professional measurements than I am by anecdotal eveidence from someone who will be happy to admit is fairly inexperienced with engines in general.
I have yet to see the liners that you have questioned despite repeated requests and promises and I have yet to see any measurements taken from them despite repeated requests.
Until an indepedent party sees and measured the liners in question then it just seems like more blarney to me.
Perhaps you should be remonstrating with PTP and the Rover/Landrover dealer network for supplying these as ‘OE liners’ and also at Rover (impossible now since the K series killed them) for supplying 100,000s of engines with acknowledged crappy liners and for still supplying the same liners as spares up to 4 years after they were superceded.
So I say again, show me the liners and lets have those independently measured, if they are found to be wanting then I will be the first in the queue to knock on AEs door.
Dave