In this instance both readings seem to match … remember I have a stack AFR gauge fitted too …
Btw Ade … have you got any spare pulleys lying around ??
No spare pulleys sadly, I would still be a bit wary of your AFR readings, Frank does speak the truth about certain elements, I have been at Sincs when they do my dyno pulls, each pull lasts about 15 seconds as the load against the car is very high, this way they get very accurate readings across the entire range, also I would test this with the in manifold wideband, the videos you showed of your AFR gauge showed into the 13’s and I feel this would be a more accurate representation of the real world. I would only ever want to see my AFRs inthe low 12’s.
The very next time I’m towing a caravan at 168 mph for 15 seconds I’ll post that video !
How long would it take on the road, for your car to rev from 1500rpm to the limiter in 4th? I know mne would take at least 15 seconds, if it doesn’t take that long then in my (simple) mind it would not be very representative of the real world
Guys. Both Frank and ade are correct on this matter.
I know you guys where only looking to get a dyno pull but you are arguing AFRs which would only be representative if you actually do a pull in 4th from low rpm to limiter but under the most load you will most likely be ever going to see. This is simply so that you get a reasonable view of the actual mixture under extreme conditions.
Do you ever use full throttle in 5th and 6th gear? Yes?
The stock pistons are not that strong being a light N/A design and can blow the ring lands with detonation on a FI 2zz. Better safe with a slighly rich mixture into the 12s. A blown piston will mean a new block or a sleeved one.
And by the way for 300bhp you do not want a sleeved block…
This is what happens when you test for the outcome you want to see… you will always get it… The unfortunate thing is the outcome you are seeking is wrong and who ever is feeding you information on proper A/F ratios is wrong…period.
Whenever you add headers that work you need to have a proper tune to take advantage of the increased exhaust flow… Headers like Jim’s will flow great in the mid range and it shows in your “lean A/F ratios”… Notice your torque going up as your A/F ratios are go down…
This is not a personal attack but you are talking to fuccckin idiots if they tell you that your dyno A/F ratio looks good…
Now have someone get the Lotus scan tool or have Essex run the car on the dyno with their software to monitor the knock sensor activity and get back to me…
It would be cool if you could prove me wrong on this but you can’t becaues it’s not a topic open to debate you are dealing with… Your car is runing on the bleading edge with those A/F ratios…
A few years ago after doing loads of dyno work mapping one of my cars, we ran it up the road first hard charge and it was knocking, I ran it back to the tuning shop and the guy appologised, he had forgotten to dial in a couple of degrees of timing to account for aero effects, I lost 10hp peak but it never knocked again, it is too easy to get this wrong.
Another incident on a different car was a blocked jet on a carb made one cylinder run lean and that was the end of the valve and the piston 
I now don’t mess and always get my stuff tuned
So you got a 9.7bhp gain from the 4-1…whereas my gain for the 4-1 was 25.7whp so if you do the maths thats actually more than double. I don’t care about total power because your whole argument is that you don’t need an ECU map when you fit a header.
Funny, I’ve seen three engines go bang in the UK because of “apparent specialists” fitting headers/induction/cams/exhausts/turbo’s/SC without sorting the ECU map out (yet the owners being reassured everything is great). When you see people having to cough up lots of money and dealing without their car for months I can tell you its not really a laughing matter or “banter”.
I have nothing to gain or loose by arguing with you over this, the simple fact is that your claiming all is well and that any owner can now just bolt on a 4-1 header and life is good. These cars aren’t cheap to upgrade or maintain so why don’t you leave it a few months, take it on track, put it under stress and write up a post when everything is OK?
[quote=jfk][quote=blacktoy]Myths are busted???
Looking at those before/after dyno’s it looks like your have less of a torque curve between 2k and 5k rpm with the 4-1? but more between 5.5k and the limiter?
I’d say the jury is still out on this one. [/quote]
Stop and take another look …
Expand the image and trace the lines on the graphs … all 8 of them !!
Closer inspection will tell you that at first glance you were mistaken ?
THE AREA UNDER THE CURVE IS THE GAIN !!!
" half the power that you did ?"
Well you got 271 … not 287 … now I’m no professor of mathematics , but even I see an error in your calculations ??
In addition what boost pressure are you running ? As I’m still on standard .
I love debate … but … keep the playing field true and level (as I have).
I post findings to help fellow owners make an informed choice on which route to follow in order to achieve their goals …
It’s not a pissing furthest contest by any means …
As I posted weeks ago , if by fitting a 4-1 proved unproductive and took power away I would post my findings …
Posting things like “having less of a torque curve between 2000 and 5000” is incorrect and needs addressing…as clearly between 2000 and 5000 the traces show a substantial area under the curve .
Does it not ?
Cmon Blacktoy … were all on the same team ?
[/quote]
Ade … Blacktoy …Cin …
Please post your AFR graphs up for comparison ?
If you are not willing then what is the point of harping on ?
I will post them once I can find them. Got more receipts, printouts and dyno’s than you wouldn’t believe!
[quote=jfk]Ade … Blacktoy …Cin …
Please post your AFR graphs up for comparison ?
If you are not willing then what is the point of harping on ? [/quote]
Harping ?
Dude people are tryin to save your ass from a very costly mistake, it’s time to say thanks, get a proper tune and enjoy your car as you should…
Your target A/F ratio under load should be 12.1/1 , that is what you want at every point of your rpm range…
Goodo …
Looking forward to it .
The overriding fact is that my before and after readings are infact RICHER with the manifold fitted … AND BY A CONSIDERABLE MARGIN …
And that is a hard fact !!!
Your posting of 12.0 AFR and 287 BHP are only at the last few hundred rpm the rest of your AFR are screwed big time…Why don’t you get this ?
It should be …
3,000 rpm. 12/1 AFR-----------------------8,500 rpm 12/1 AFR
I’ve found my initial stock Katana map dyno which was running lean due to the sports cat and the AFR was pretty much 12 to 13.3 across the rev range with a few blip spikes into the 14’s and that had noticeable detonation/pinking/metallic pinging. That was the reason I needed a custom map which sorted everything out. Remember the stock Katana map assumes the car is totally standard and mine wasn’t.
If I compare this AFR plot with your AFR plot your only under 13 at 5.5k rpm and touch low 12’s at max rpm so running pretty lean up until that point. As Frank and Ade said you really want to be low 12’s across the rev range.
Not trying to stir anything here but whoever told you those AFR’s are OK needs shooting.
[quote=frank]Your posting of 12.0 AFR and 287 BHP are only at the last few hundred rpm the rest of your AFR are screwed big time…Why don’t you get this ?
It should be …
3,000 rpm. 12/1 AFR-----------------------8,500 rpm 12/1 AFR [/quote]
Simple Frank … that’s how Lotus mapped the 260 ECU .
Do you really think they want all their 260 cars to blow up ??
I know nothing about AFR’s, and this thread is quite worrying for me, so can you please take a look at my readings (sorry about the quality, is a phone pic) and let me know your thoughts.
My car came in @ 297.8 bhp with just TRD, Forge cooler, 2Bular 24x8 GT3, CN’s lotus 260 upgrade.
Edit to say, we could really do with a RGB/ 260 cup graph posting up!
^^^^^ exactly as Lotus intended ^^^^^
[quote=jfk][quote=frank]Your posting of 12.0 AFR and 287 BHP are only at the last few hundred rpm the rest of your AFR are screwed big time…Why don’t you get this ?
It should be …
3,000 rpm. 12/1 AFR-----------------------8,500 rpm 12/1 AFR [/quote]
Simple Frank … that’s how Lotus mapped the 260 ECU .
Do you really think they want all their 260 cars to blow up ?? [/quote]
What point about proper AFR is not sinking into your skull ?
You are making 287 hp on a tune writen for 260 bph you have streched the envelope beyond the safe range with those AFR’s…
If Lotus tuned the 260 for race headers and wanted 287 hp the AFR’s would never be that lean…never…
You don’t have a 12/1 AFR tune you have 13/1 AFR at full load in mid winter…Just wait for summer… :whistle:
This is beyond fucckin stupid now, enjoy your future melted piston art project…
Please as I said before guys don’t follow this fool… 
[quote=MarkS2s]I know nothing about AFR’s, and this thread is quite worrying for me, so can you please take a look at my readings (sorry about the quality, is a phone pic) and let me know your thoughts.
My car came in @ 297.8 bhp with just TRD, Forge cooler, 2Bular 24x8 GT3, CN’s lotus 260 upgrade.
Edit to say, we could really do with a RGB/ 260 cup graph posting up! [/quote]
I’ve been following this from a distance in my bunker with my lid on - time to poke my nose in
I know fook all about tuning, AFR’s etc but from reading this thread and others I think caution should be used when venturing much beyond the Lotus 260 map. If you look at all of the people on here running 270 + the majority have got custom maps to avoid issues. Mark your 297 is impressive but I’d be cacking myself or getting it down to Essex Motorsport pronto
Take a look at Frank’s history on Lotus tuning over the years and I have to agree with him - no issues going 270 + but fitting aftermarket bits and hoping the stock Map will cope is potentially risky. Just re read the thread and the first 3 pages are inviting comments/advice but by the end it’s turned into a sh*t fight
We’re all looking out for each other in our own inimitable fasion 