Hello Guys,
Here is our new Alcon 4 wheel brake kit for the Street/Track guys. We will have a more serious rear kit shortly for the hard core track fella’s as well. This kit saves 1 pound per side in the front and over 2 pounds per side in the rear . The rotors are 328mm front and back with vented slots with the new B spec Alcon 4 piston calipers. Have a great weekend guys!
www.elisetalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=12434&stc=1
Brett.
Rears:
Cool! another option!
Those rear calipers look very small… you would be suprised at how much rear braking you can atand at the rear of an Elise. Remember that it is nearly rear engined.
Yep - lots of braking can be done in the rear. Also - those disks are overkill IMHO - the Motorsport brake package comes with 295mm rotors and it is plenty. The AP system that SeanB just installed (and I have as well) is a better system, IMHO.
Not trying to be too anal but … are you going to anodise the bells and … your still going end up with a rust ring on the rear - a bit larger diameter on the bell and you loose it …
Yep - lots of braking can be done in the rear. Also - those disks are overkill IMHO - the Motorsport brake package comes with 295mm rotors and it is plenty. The AP system that SeanB just installed (and I have as well) is a better system, IMHO.
What makes you say that the Ap kit is better without even seeing these brakes or trying them? Nothing overkill about our set up as we have 400 horsepower to stop from 150mph for this months Car and Driver Super Tuner Shootout:
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=35&article_id=8719
We will have a 2 pot rear kit that uses a dedicated e-brake caliper soon for the ultimate brake packge for the car. The factory brakes leave a lot to be desired when you are making horsepower in this little car. Even our Sport 275 package is under braked, that’s why we developed this kit. It also looks as though the AP kit needs a proportioning valve? Is that correct?
Not trying to be too anal but … are you going to anodise the bells and … your still going end up with a rust ring on the rear - a bit larger diameter on the bell and you loose it …
Yes this is our first, prototype package on our shop car that is competiting in 3 magazines over the next few weeks. Production kits will be anodized balck and calipers will come in standard, black or red finish.
Nice setup, Yes with that kind of horsepower you need better brakes. However i hope the Brembo pads in the rear are just for show, because you cannot expect std pads to stop the car, the factory pads leave more to be desired than the setup itself.
Correct me if i am wrong i am not criticising as you do great work on these cars but it has always been my understanding that large flat bells should be avoided, would it not be preferential to add some holes for cooling in those. As they are going to experience alot of stress and more than likely warp.
Yes the AP/Lotus setup requires a bias valve if you move the front 2 pots to the back in order to maintain balance in differing conditions, I would suggest installing a bias valve in your setup as well, trut me you are going to need it, rather now than in the first rain storm.
Yep the AP kit requires a rear proportioning valve, but I actually look at this as a plus point. Like Randy says I don’t think people realise how much braking you can do with the rear. I have been out setting mine up today and have it set two clicks from full rear and you can feel the back really working and hunkering down under hard braking. But keeping as much braking power to the rear as possible requires a bit of tweaking for differing conditions etc.
I will say though that Alcon callipers are very very good quality.
Who makes the disks as I have found that disk quality varies massively between an AP or Brembo or Performance Friction disk to anything else!!!
WOW - I didn’t know that horsepower had anything to do with braking distance - I’m learning new stuff everyday.
A bias valve is a good thing, btw.
Sean - I have upgraded to the bias control “knob” that AP sells - it gives infinite adjustment.
The reason I didn’t go for the knob is that I would forget where I had put it and which way was which. With a simple lever it gives my rather limited brain capacity an easier time.
WOW - I didn’t know that horsepower had anything to do with braking distance - I’m learning new stuff everyday.
A bias valve is a good thing, btw.
Horsepower has a lot to do with braking distances. Obviously if you are going 110mph down a straight with 190 horsepower and need to brake to 40mph for a turn the brakes are working at a certain level. Now with 400 horsepower we are going 145mph down the same straight…wow we need to scrub off 105mph instead of 70mph to make the same turn. Pretty simple stuff. If possible I would rather have no proportining valve at all for the base kit, but rather corectly sized pistons in the calipers. Makes the kit a lot easier to get up and running. However when we upgrade the rears to our Alcon 2 piston caliper I definately see a need to offer the valve for the exact reasons mentioned.
As for the rear pads, those will be changed for a more aggressive track pad when we do our track tests. We will have conclusive braking data on out Alcon kit from 60mph-0, 70mph-0, 80mph-0 and 150mph-0 recorded in feet. We look forward to setting new braking records with all of the magazines we are running in over the next few weeks! We also hope to smash the Motor Trend magazine production car marks for acceleration (0-60, 1/4 mile). We already set the slalom record with our Sport 275 Elise 3 months ago. We have the Ferrari Enzo acceleration numbers to beat:
0-60mph : 3.4 seconds
1/4 mile : [email protected]
Porsche Carrera GT Braking number to beat:
60-0mph : 101 feet
I will post up after the tests and let you guys know how we did! Wish us luck.
Brett.
We ran 10.9 second quarter @ 135.6 MPH, 2 weekends ago with the orange car, it di 3 runs at that so it was not a fluke. It would be great to have the pistons correctly sized and avoid the valve for road use. For track use the valve helps to make the most of the brakes on turn in and in the wet.
Best of luck, If they let you adjust the settings during the event it will help to take some camber shims along and knock back on the camber for braking and 1/4 miles.
So indeed horsepower has nothing to do with braking … its speed …
Brett
Good luck with this… let us know the results.
For the option where you keep the standard rear caliper i’d suggest you get rotors, or machine them, such that they are 100% in contact with the pad. Stops rust (as mentioned by AndyD) and will help with weight reduction .
BHP and speed are kinda interchangeable when the weight of the car doesn’t change by much… i think we should all be able to appreciate that more power usually comes with a need for bigger brakes as well eh guys…
As stated - it’s the speed the causes the need for bigger brakes - not the horsepower.
Also - you mention correctly sized pistons, etc. What is correct size? Is one size best in all situations? What about running in the rain, etc? There is no one size fits all on a good braking system - that’s where the valve comes in.
You can’t brake harder than your tires will allow. Lock up is lock up. So, then you work with building the components to maximize braking and minimizing weight. I can’t see how rotors bigger than 295mm is going to stop you any faster, IMHO.
As stated - it’s the speed the causes the need for bigger brakes - not the horsepower.
Also - you mention correctly sized pistons, etc. What is correct size? Is one size best in all situations? What about running in the rain, etc? There is no one size fits all on a good braking system - that’s where the valve comes in.
You can’t brake harder than your tires will allow. Lock up is lock up. So, then you work with building the components to maximize braking and minimizing weight. I can’t see how rotors bigger than 295mm is going to stop you any faster, IMHO.
Horsepower equals more speed? Correct? If you keep the weight constant and add another 210whp you will be going faster everywhere on track. Therefore horsepower equals the need for better brakes, which usually means bigger rotors to absorb heat. We are running 17x7.5 wheels up front which allows us to put a 328mm Alcon rotor on the car. Our new 2 piston rear kit will use a slightly smaller rotor in back as we are adding to much braking force back there with that kit and will upset the balance of the car.
Our current kit shaves 2 pounds per side in the rear and 1 pound per side in the front. We will also be having spindles made from Aluminum for even more weight savings.
Brett.
We ran 10.9 second quarter @ 135.6 MPH, 2 weekends ago with the orange car, it di 3 runs at that so it was not a fluke. It would be great to have the pistons correctly sized and avoid the valve for road use. For track use the valve helps to make the most of the brakes on turn in and in the wet.
Best of luck, If they let you adjust the settings during the event it will help to take some camber shims along and knock back on the camber for braking and 1/4 miles.
Thanks for the comments! To run the 10.9 quarter mile may I ask what your set up was? Engine, approx horsepower and torque as well as tire combination? Did you have a LSD? My computer calculations show we should do a 10.8@132mph, but that is not in the real world where there is wheel spin, traction issues, shifting, headwind etc etc…
Brett.
God you lot are pedantic. I’d have thought “horsepower needs bigger brakes” is fairly self explanatory.
Look forward to reading the article in C&D Brett.