Bernard, just out of interest, may I enquire what you feel is not a lot of money.
Surely there has to be a sort of minimum when you do anything to an engine?
Not stiring, just interested in your opinion.
Thanks, Ian
Sean’s not going to be a cheap engine.
Mine is: 220 BHP for about �3.5K.That’s me perfetlty happy
What modifications are included within this �3.5k? I mean, do I just give a standard 1.8 k-series and �3.5k and get an engine like this? Because, if this is the case, this sounds really cheap to me!
As far as I am aware there are 4 of the top spec 2.0 litre race engines being built and none of them are done yet. Every single component is a one off so parts have took a long time to get together. These were also never intended to be cheap.
However when I was looking at engine options I looked at the 2.0 and 2.4 litre Millington Diamond race engines. One of those goes for about �24,000 for an approx 300bhp race engine. So when you compare apples with apples, i.e a one off specific light weight race engine against another, my engine will turn in at a lot less than half the cost of the Millington, for an engine of similiar weight and power output (fingers crossed).
At the end of the day, wouldn’t the world be a boring place if we all just threw a Honda engine in the back. lol
Sean…
When I read
and one day when I see fit, you will learn all about that - but to my adgenda , not yours.
I thought of
[image]http://eislermusic.com/blog/ErnstStavroBlofeld.jpg[/image]
![http://eislermusic.com/blog/ErnstStavroBlofeld.jpg[/image]](http://eislermusic.com/blog/ErnstStavroBlofeld.jpg%5B/image%5D){kind=link}
And that has been the plot so far, people read what they want to read.
Go figure…
Bernard, just out of interest, may I enquire what you feel is not a lot of money.
Surely there has to be a sort of minimum when you do anything to an engine?
Not stiring, just interested in your opinion.
Thanks, Ian
Well if you could get a reliable 240 BHP from a K for �5000 INCLUDING the labour for building the engine I would say that was not a lot of money.
To be clear, I’m not talking about just the engine here, but all the gubbins that you need to actually run it, ie ECU, throttle bodies, airbox etc.
Bernard
Every single component is a one off so parts have took a long time to get together.
That is exactly my point again, you have to change practically all the parts in the engine to either get the power or make it hold together. I suspect the only original K parts are the flywheel bolts, and for all I know you could have changed those too !!
In my view it’s not a K engine anymore. It’s a one off race engine that looks similar to a K from the outside.
Bernard
Every single component is a one off so parts have took a long time to get together.
That is exactly my point again, you have to change practically all the parts in the engine to either get the power or make it hold together. I suspect the only original K parts are the flywheel bolts, and for all I know you could have changed those too !!
In my view it’s not a K engine anymore. It’s a one off race engine that looks similar to a K from the outside.
Bernard
Bernard,
What I ment was the full on 2.0 litre engines that Simon is building are not really able to be included in the whole cost effective argument when compared with other production type engines. I think the 2.0 litres are better compared with similiar specific race engines like the Millington.
Sean…
Yes it looks the same from the outside - more or less - the MS3 head looks different, but they always share the K concept = lightweight, efficient and therefore have an advantage over all the industry standard engines , be they hondas, Audis or whatever which undermine the car’s balance and therefore are slower on track.
For the record were I ever to take on an Audi - I would change the flywheel to something appropriate for the Elise’s weight, which would necessitate knocking the engine down to balance the new flywheel to crank, pulleys etc. I would the replace pistons and rods with some lighter forged and steel equivalents to be rid of the clumsy ten ton OE parts - to reduce stress, and balance them. I’d then blueprint the block to improve on factory tolerances, and to set bearing clearances. I’d replace valves and guides to reduce valve train weight and ensure long life, port of course to improve flow. Replace liners with steel and coated equivalents for reduced friction, lees blowby and long life etc etc, and at the end of the day you would still have a heavy crude design concept which will seriously compomise the cars handling, for what - the 10/12 grand you charge to drop one in plus all the work and labour and parts.
And finally, five of the engines out there so far are all Rover, bar forged pistons, flywheels, cams and valves. Pretty OE. they have just been meticulously put togeather to be unstressed, and long lasting.
Wow, some things we can agree on.
Yes the K is a lighter engine than the Honda or Audi. Whether that small advantage outweighs its deficits is not certain.
Yes the Audi flywheel is criminally heavy and preferably should be replaced with a lighter item, but nobody makes one for the 6 speed box at a sensible price. The engine does not need to be stripped to replace the flywheel, provided each component, crank, rods torsional damper etc is properly balanced then the resultant assembly will be balanced too.
The standard rods forged are good enough for 330 or BHP, the standard 225 BHP pistons are good enough for 375 BHP so why replace them ?
OK blueprinting all the parts is all well and good but if they are made accurately in the first place the gains are minimal.
The engine has an iron block so there are no liners to replace.
Yes, the 5 engines of your engines out there may well be largely Rover (with selected assembly to make sure the tolerances don’t stack up) but they are not making 240 BHP are they ?
Bernard
Please tell me how a fully dressed K weigh’s 74kg’s. The complete engine, complete as in only gearbox and exhaust manifold removed everything else in place, weighed earlier today was 94kg, plus say 5kg’s for the clutch and pressure plate so we’ll call it 100kg’s. The 2l motor I am getting out of the carbon (ex kershaw) exige weigh’s 102kg in the same state, also weighed earlier today, but with dry sump system.
Unless there is alot of titanium involved, I don’'t see a motor ready to be fitted to a car losing 30kg’s, maybe it’s being weighed without alternator, throttle bodies etc. But to be fair that doesn’t count, the weight should be of the complete motor ready to run, minus gearbox.
Now don’t misunderstand me, I am quite an advocate for the K series, so much so I have 3 of them at the moment, but let’s be realistic about it.
That’s fair enough
If you want too see one on the scales come round.
Why not just post a photo?
Wow, some things we can agree on.
DOESN’T LOOK LIKE IT TO ME!Yes the K is a lighter engine than the Honda or Audi. Whether that small advantage outweighs its deficits is not certain.
BUT IT’S NOT A SMALL ADVANTAGE IS IT? - SPEND MONEY [SAY 5/6 GRAND] TO PREP A K AND YOU HAVE AN ENGINE THAT WEIGHS 70 - 74 KG, YOURS AND THE HONDAS COST TWICE THE MONEY AND WEIGH TWICE THAT. NOW GIVEN EQUAL POWER OUTPUTS - A BIG ASSUMPTION BECAUSE YOUR TURBO IS PUNY COMPARED TO MINE - ANY BTCC CAR WINNING A RACE GETS A 45KG HANDICAP. ON AVERAGE THAT COSTS 0.4 SEC PER LAP. NOW YOU ARE ADDING MORE THAN TWICE THAT OVER THE BACK WHEELS AND HIGH UP, AS OPPOSED TO BEING ABLE TO EVEN OUT WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION IN THE BTCC SERIES. ALSO YOU ARE ADDING IT TO A 600/700KG CAR NOT A 950KG ONE, SO IT WOULD BE UNWISE TO ASSUME GINEN EQUAL POWER OUTPUTS A HONDA/AUDI IS LESS THAN 1 SEC/LAP SLOWER , GIVEN ALL ELSE EQUAL - THATS A COUNTRY MILE! AND THE ADVANTAGE OF BLUEPRINTING AND USING PROPERLY DESIGNED STEEL PARTS IS THAT YOU GET A MUCH SMOOTHER, LESS STRESSED, LONGER LIVING ENGINE, THAT IN THE CASE OF FI IS CAPABLE OF A LOT MORE THAN A DINKY 330BHP - ONE DAY YOU WILL SEE, AND FOR PROBABLY THE SAME MONEY AS YOU ARE CHARGING FOR YOUR CONVERSION.
Yes the Audi flywheel is criminally heavy and preferably should be replaced with a lighter item, but nobody makes one for the 6 speed box at a sensible price.The engine does not need to be stripped to replace the flywheel, provided each component, crank, rods torsional damper etc is properly balanced then the resultant assembly will be balanced too.
ABSOLUTELY NOT, THE FLYWHEEL MUST BE BALANCED TO THE CRANK SET - INDIVIDUALLY AND AS AN ASSEMBLY, THAT MEANS KNOCK DOWN, UNQUESTIONABLY, UNAVOIDADABLY, WITHOUT ANY SHADOW OF DOUBT!!! YOU HAVN’T LEARN’T ANYTHING FROM KING K HAVE YOU - WHAT A SURPRISE!
The standard rods forged are good enough for 330 or BHP, the standard 225 BHP pistons are good enough for 375 BHP so why replace them ?WELL IF YOU READ WHAT I WROTE IT WAS TO LIGHTEN THEM, TAKE STRESS OUT OF THE ENGINE - LOTS OF IT - WEIGHT IS THE MORTAL ENEMY OF AN UNSTRESSED ENGINE , AND TO BALANCE THEM TO A RACE SPEC.
OK blueprinting all the parts is all well and good but if they are made accurately in the first place the gains are minimal.
ALL GERMAN ENGINES WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE BMW V8 AND V10S ARE REGARGED THROUGHTOUT THE INDUSTRY AS CRUDE CONSERVATIVE DESIGNS. THEREFORE BLUEPRINTING GIVES BIG GAINS, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY TO ME MAKES A CREAMY SMOOTH, UNSTRESSED, LONG LIVING ENGINE.
The engine has an iron block so there are no liners to replace.
OK, BUT THEY CAN BE BORED OUT AND STEEL SLIPPER LINERS PUT IN FOR LONG LIFE, LOW FRICTION AND LESS BLOWBY.
Yes, the 5 engines of your engines out there may well be largely Rover (with selected assembly to make sure the tolerances don’t stack up) but they are not making 240 BHP are they ?
WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THAT? YOU HAVE NO IDEA, BUT BERNARD I PROMISE YOU SOME SURPRISES
My, my, where do I start ? I don’t really have the time.
I was trying to offer an olive branch, but that seems to have been a waste of time.
It’s always jam tomorrow with you isn’t it ? Dream on Simon.
Bernard
I am in the market for an engine upgrade and these posts (whilst very entertaining) are confusing the hell out of me.
What is the ultimate goal of all these ‘chats’, is it that I will be able to get my K 240+bhp for a price (roughly what price please, bhp vs price would be good - starting at 220 to 300) ? I see from the autoteknix website that they can give me 250bhp + 6 speed gearbox for around �8K (or 300 for �11K), and they give me the ‘K’ back to me to sell on, this seems like a very good offer (especially as the gearbox in my car is shagged) ? It seems to me that the posts often end up a discussion about race engines (ultimate lap times, etc), do most of the conversions done by you guys end up in a race series or as trackday toys, just interested ?
Bernard - can I ask what the queue is like for the conversion at the moment, thanks (you can PM me if you like) ? Also, do you do ‘kits’ for fitting yourself ? If so, how much are you looking at for these ?
I was trying to offer an olive branch, but that seems to have been a waste of time.
FWIW I saw your good will Bernard.
I think both of you have very valid points but sadly it seems that Simon didn’t get your peaceful comments (been attacked a lot in the past).
Also, Simon seems to see it from an “optimized” point of view, and yours seems like a practical point of view.