VERY NASTY INFORMATION FOR US ALL?

General General Lotus Talk
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Am I the most indecisive purchaser or does everyone get this confuzzled when doing the old Elise/Exige/Caterham choice thing?Have you got a Caterham too Pesky?

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I don’t think that you are indecisive I think that you are rationalising. This is a perfectly normal part of the sales process. As soon as you buy your Exige [image]http://www.exiges.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif[/image] you will need even more reassurance as the horror of what you have done sinks in and you realise that you could have a used MX5 and a brief case with 20k in for the same outlay. [JOKE]I assume Emerald are waiting for type-approval for the ECU.It’s more than possible for a car to pass an MOT without type-approval or SVA. The MOT test is particularly shallow. Someone like TT must have the definitive view on that.David - have they given you any insights on this?On the SVA testing. If you make major modifications to a vehicle then I’m sure this is required.This tells you what vehicles are in scope for SVA and defines them: http://www.roads.dtlr.gov.uk/vehicle/sva/sva4/02.htm http://www.roads.dtlr.gov.uk/vehicle/sva/sva4/03.htm http://www.roads.dtlr.gov.uk/vehicle/sva/sva4/app01.htm What I’m not clear on is how much you have to change/what you have to do to invalidate the approval the car had? At what point does the fitting of a few type-approved parts become fitting lots of type-approved parts and when does that become a new car requiring SVA?[This message has been edited by Matthew Treagus (edited 07 January 2002).]

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quote:Originally posted by Julian Thompson:Have you got a Caterham too Pesky?Not any more - had 3 between 1994 & 1998. With the best will in the world, a Caterham is only for weekends/fun. From 1963 (!!!) a Lotus 7 was my “potentially in the future affordable supercar”, & I realised an ambition in 1994 when I got one! I loved each one of the 3 I owned, but they were purely for fun - I had a company car & my missus also had a car.I first saw an Exige prototype at Oulton Park in spring 2000 - the Elise racers were supporting the Touring Cars. Then after seeing the production version the week they were launched, I was totally hooked. I just knew that I had to have one - okay it was a few grand over my budget, but hell, when buying a car like the Exige things like that don’t matter - heart rules head [image]http://www.exiges.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif[/image] For the first 6 months, the Exige was my daily driver - what a way to cover 10K miles in that time [image]http://www.exiges.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif[/image] Now I’m fortunate to be able to keep my Exige as a fun car, as I can either use a Ford Ka or Toyota Yaris T Sport for commuting. I can’t speak for everyone on this bbs, but I know I echo the thoughts of quite a few - for us lucky owners, the Exige was/is a “must have”, & you take it for what it is -a road legal racer, pure & simple. But it’s still a car in which I can drive to Le Mans, camp for a week, & then return, all in relative comfort. That is relative to “7” type car - fabulous as they are on a track. What would I trade it for? The only car short of a 911 Carrera, which I would gladly swap it for would be a Noble, & one of those would set me back �45K plus!!I forgot to mention that after the Caterhams, I only had the use of one car, so I tried an Impreza TypeR & then an EVO 6. Both fantastic cars, but for that extra special “x factor” the Exige, for me, wins hands down.Sorry to keep going on, but if the Exige hasn’t yet set off an uncontrollable lust in you to have one, it’s probably not for you. As in every love affair, you have to be prepared to accept & forgive any shortcomings, particularly when the highs are so…high [image]http://www.exiges.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif[/image]

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pesky you old romantic you … but never a truer word said … mind you i did question my girlfriends type approval when i met her and im not sure shes going to pass her next mot … time for a trade in maybe [image]http://www.exiges.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif[/image]

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quote:Originally posted by roger x:… mind you i did question my girlfriends type approval when i met her and im not sure shes going to pass her next mot … time for a trade in maybe [image]http://www.exiges.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif[/image]ROFLMAO [image]http://www.exiges.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif[/image]You could get her to try cosmetic surgery, but under EEC law she may not be able to swap back to original spec [image]http://www.exiges.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif[/image] Matt, can you point us in the direction of the relevent articles as published in The Lancet or perhaps by the BMA? [image]http://www.exiges.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif[/image] [This message has been edited by Pesky (edited 07 January 2002).]

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Just get type-approval for the girl friends and then you can swap them around without retesting.

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its her emissions im most worried about and of course theres the noise problem … i just cannot get her to shut up !! [image]http://www.exiges.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif[/image]

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quote:Originally posted by roger x:its her emissions im most worried aboutI’m sure the feeling is mutual [image]http://www.exiges.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif[/image]

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Class!

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Good points Matthew; I read some of the technical law stuff last night; I found a reference to the fact that the car seems to need new type approval when (…blah blah…) and then more interestingly, “The cylinder capcaity is increased by more than 10%” - This seems odd, but of course the logbook would need to reflect this change, whereas it would not have to say “1769cc, dirty great pair of cams, valves the size of dinner plates”, would it!I spoke to an SVA centre today who said, "We have to ensure all cars that come in here, and that is mainly Jap imports, meet SVA standards absolutely to the letter - Bulb wattages, tyre ratings, emmissions, the lot. Once you’ve done that most people seem to sellotape a jet engine to the roof and that’s okay, as long as you tell your insurance company, who don’t care if the modifications are compliant to the vehicle’s type approval or not as long as they know."Hmmmmmmmn. Not exactly conclusive, and he did say he wouldn’t get approval documents to test a registered car unless it had been tested by Millbrook first, in which case it would have to be EURO3 compliant for them to issue the OK for it to be SVA’d. (???what???)Still, then, the question remains;Can you re-SVA a previously type approved but now performance tuned but not capacity enhanced vehicle so it is legal to drive in the UK?There will be a prize* for the person who conclusively answers this, the quality of which will depend on whether the answer is YES or NO (!)* I am lying. (see article www.gov.bollocks/talking/i.am/EURO3)

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Just found this on the SVA site:"What vehicles are within the scope of SVA?(a) cars or light passenger vehicles2 with:four or more wheels and not more than 8 seats (either actual or declared)3in addition to the driver’s seat; or…"This section is for unregistered cars, so could you take your new, unregistered Elise with invoice showing the fact that it is new and an invoice for the now bolted on non type approved exhaust and, say, ECU, and make them SVA it?

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We’re back to the same question?When does a car require an SVA again? Or what causes a car to be eligible for an SVA again?Another way of asking the question; If I go and buy a brand new Ford Focus what would stop me booking it in for an SVA? (Apart from common sense and the fact that it doesn’t need one!) Why would the guy in the test centre say - no?

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Yeah! That’s the one! I’ve decided that if I can arse about with it I am going to get a new Elise (I can import one for just over 20k new)If not I’ll get the Exige and if they’ve all gone by the time someone answers this bloody question I’ll get a new Caterham 7.Now, I’m going to sit and wait for the man with all the answers…

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An interesting discussion- Over here in the U.S. (who was spitting on EU? Over here, EU is Europe, not Etats-Unis or whatever you want to call it), SVA is “Specially Constructed Vehicle”. Unfortunately, the regs here are horrible! We have to show a bill of materials for the parts used to MAKE the auto, so that’s just not an option… I’d be interested in seeing someone pass SVA with a production car… Also, OBD is not that bad over here, unless (you) want an Elise! The only options are to A) make OBD and install, or B) replace the engine with OBD compliant engine. There’s actually a company that does a conversion from rover to OBD compliant Honda (type r) B18C engine… That puts the HP up to 195, but of course, also puts the price of the S1 up to 38k pounds.

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oi Jim, EU is NOT Europe, ok? Switzerland doesn’t belong to these plonkers… [image]http://www.exiges.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif[/image] [image]http://www.exiges.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/tongue.gif[/image]cheers,Bruno

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oh, here’s the question I really meant to ask: Does anyone know if there is a significant difference between your OBD and USA’s OBD II? I assume so; why would we want to simplify life any?

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Hmmmn, seems everywhere they are tightening up. Actually I’ve made some progress today with it, although the news ain’t good:1) SVA depots are happy to SVA your new Elise but since the car is a type approved vehicle it must comply with those type approval regs listed on the Certificate Of Conformity issued by MIRA for Lotus.2) Even if you went the whole hog and tried to get ESVA it is still no good because since these cars are built after the cutoff the car must meet EURO3 standards.3) Your car can not be classed as a kit car because it was built “substantially by a business or individual whose primary business interests include the manufacture of motor vehicles” - Lotus! Therefore you can’t just get the thing SVA’d like you would a Caterham.The upshot is this: Essentially, as long as you tell your insurance company about the mods you are probably as covered as anyone else with a modded S2 Elise, and judging by the attitudes of both SVA centres I spoke to and all 3 MOT guys, it is MASSIVELY UNLIKELY that you will have any issues at all, even with the Police because other than a visual inspecion to see if the MIL light works (and it is not hard to sort this out artificially) they have no way of detecting the changes. Even at MOT time, as long as you back everything off + see roger’s mate on the isle of dogs or where ever it was you will have no problems.According to one piece of legislation I read, they (EEC) won’t even bother trying to check these new things until about 2005 because the fleet size with them is too small to bother working out a method of doing it. Even then, how will all the manufacturers have identical plugs for diagnostics unless that is already decided.My view FWIW is that the current OBD system is seen really as a way of telling the customer that their car is malfunctioning rather than a way of acting on new legislation and you are unlikely to have a problem.In addition, according to these couple of tuners (Theilart/Turbo Technics) who seem comfortable with it, perhaps the restrictions just mean we wait a few months for a REMAPPABLE OBD equipped ECU - then we can fit all the junk to the motor, reset the parameters on the ECU to chuck out more emissions than Sizewell B on an off day (but still retain OBD, Officer) then when it comes to Euro MOT day, wind the GreenPeace map back into the little rascal and Robert is your dad’s brother. (Bob’s Ya Uncle?)Having said all this, it is still a little tinker, eh?

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quote:Originally posted by Julian Thompson:My view FWIW is that the current OBD system is seen really as a way of telling the customer that their car is malfunctioning rather than a way of acting on new legislation and you are unlikely to have a problem.Hallelujah - knew you’d get there in the end!Just one cautionary note though - if you modify an Elise with non-Lotus supplied parts (e.g. different ECU), you will invalidate your warranty! You know what the answer is though, don’t you [image]http://www.exiges.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif[/image]

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Julian, you heard the man!Trust me, it just keeps getting better, every mile any speed… [image]http://www.exiges.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/grin.gif[/image][This message has been edited by IDG (edited 10 January 2002).]

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quote:Originally posted by Julian Thompson:My view FWIW is that the current OBD system is seen really as a way of telling the customer that their car is malfunctioning rather than a way of acting on new legislation and you are unlikely to have a problem.That’s part of the function yes. OBD systems are great for trouble-shooting if you have a code-reader and some experience on how to interpret them. It’s like having the engine telling you what’s wrong with it…But it also has side-effects like the one I just experienced… My ‘friendly neighbourhood Lotus dealer’ complimenting me on running in my new S2 properly according to the data they downloaded from the ECU while the A/S service was performed.If these numbers had shown me thrashing the car then Lotus automatically invalidates all warranty.So that’s what the data is used for too.Levels of enforcement of the Euro-III regulations will probably vary wildly across Europe with countries like Germany following the ‘hard line’ and actually do all the checks, while I can imagine that in Spain nobody really cares either way.Bye, Arno.