Hells bells
Take a look at this thread on SELOC Here & in particular the post by “A G” @ 4.42pm today.
I’m beginning to get the feeling that trackdays as we know them (cost/numbers of cars on circuit), will soon be a thing of the past
Not good at all… it’s a shame that insurers don’t offer a no claims bonus type affair for those that have been on track without incident… first track day is say �200 cover… then �150… then �100 and so on.
Alternatively, do what I did and buy a 2.8i Capri for �500… take out the interior, whack a roll cage in it… and don’t give a stuff about insurance.
Never quite figured out the trackday insurance thing. Last year it was included in the policy at no extra charge, this year its included at a premium of �27.50 per event.
What I never worked out was what would happen if I thought it was someone else’s fault if my car got damaged. Isn’t this just a claim again them as per the rules on the road, the only difference being they may be uninsured?
Am I covered for hitting someone else is probably the question we should be asking ourselves. Whose fault it is can be worked out by due process through the law, but if you don’t have insurance for your liability then it could get expensive. You don’t sign away your right to sue/claim against third parties on a trackday…do you?
Steve
As far as I know, if you have trackday insurance, it only covers YOUR car (I don’t know if personal accident cover applies, but I would imagine not). So if you smack into the armco, your insurance pays, plus if AN Other smacks into your car, YOUR insurance also pays for the damage to your car.In other words, there is prima facie no third party liability (or cover). Whether or not you can successfully pursue (or be pursued by) a third party (on the grounds of negligence?) is apparantly open to question, because there does not appear to presently be any case law for trackday incidents.
Perhaps JohnO could clarify this for us, please?
At a rally a few years ago a Metro 6R4 went straight on at a slow 90 degree corner, it hit my Girlfriend and deposited a friend over it roof and into hospital quite badly smashed up. We were standing in the paddock actually, so not really where we should have been …
He didnt stop and everyone thought tough luck as “you spectate at your own risk” - ( read the signs !! )
Well not so, because every one hurt was able to claim against his “negligence” and won damages.
Soooo I think a point well worth “clearing up” this trackday “insurance” - what is it really
Quite true Mr Pesky. There is own damage cover only on the track if you have insurance.Also you must actually hit something i.e. a tyre wall etc… so no gravel trap damage!
Regards
JohnO
Knowing insurance companies, I thought that they would require a full report and if they could recover any money off a third party because they thought that they were to blame (anywhere on the scale of 100% right down to 10%) then they would have the inclination and resources to go after someone.
Similarly, if you were hit by another car and thought they were 100% to blame, wouldn’t you go after them rather than claim on your own insurance?
Similarly, if you were hit by another car and thought they were 100% to blame, wouldn’t you go after them rather than claim on your own insurance?
Steve
Your own insurance co. wouldn’t go down that route - that’s why trackday insurance is difficult/expensive to arrange Very few individuals have the resources/time to take out a civil action, particularly if they’ve signed the organisers/circuit owners indemnity waiver forms(which we all sign before we are allowed to get on track)! As far as I am aware, only personal injuries/death caused by negligence cannot be waived, but any claims would have to be pursued through the civil courts. Rumour has it, that both Castle Combe & Donington have such cases pending at present, although I would be happy to be corrected if this is not the case!
There was also an intersting post about the liability of taking passengers out and that if they were hurt they could easily claim off of you for being negligent…
I think the final verdict was be careful who you take out
Mark
I think the passanger issue is a very real one …
I think the final verdict was be careful who you take out
As in kill?
Seriously though, proving negligence (on the balance of probabilities) may well not be easy in a civil court eg who is negligent if your car spins on oil dropped by another car & you smack into the armco - you for not spotting it, the marshals for not waving a flag (even if they saw the oil), or perhaps no-one was negligent in this case? I don’t know the answer, & until there is an actual case, I don’t suppose anyone does.
Perhaps we should put together some form of ‘passenger indemnity’ and get them to sign before the ride??
Would that be legal?
Perhaps we should put together some form of ‘passenger indemnity’ and get them to sign before the ride??
Would that be legal?
This sort of thing has been discussed before and isn’t worth the paper it is written on apparantly.
The whole thing is just a complete minefield… Since hearing that it does make me less inclined to take out strangers.
Friends, no problem… Been meaning to bury a few of 'em anuway LOL!
This sort of thing has been discussed before and isn’t worth the paper it is written on apparantly.
A colleague’s trackdaying husband is a top negligence barrister and he agrees. He’s not aware of any completed case yet.
Ian
Hi All,
As I organise race meeetings and other motor sports events for a living I have some thoughts you may be interested in.
The key thing is not to break the law - if you break the law you can be punished for that alone. In the case of track days, passengers etc there is very little law which applies. No-one is at work so the H & S acts do not strictly apply although any organiser is reponsible for conducting his track day in a safe manner - this is why we all sign idemnities to say that we know what the risks are, that we will follow the rules, that our car is safe etc. In this way the organiser discharges his responsibility to the law. If we don’t comply with the indemnity we have signed we are negligent. Finally in this paragraph, if you do not break the law then anything that you might end up in court for is a matter of opinion - your barrister versus his - to sway the judges opinion. Case law has little to do with it because every case could be different.
HOWEVER, IF you have signed an indemnity which says that you or your passenger take part in full knowledge of the risks and dangers involved it is unlikely that any court is going to show you much sypmathy if you answer ‘yes’ to the question ‘were you made aware of the dangers and did you sign an indemnity to the that effect?’ unless the organiser, venue owner or someone else has been TRULY NEGLIGENT. If that is the case then you can sue and counter sue until the opinions settle down and the lawyers get rich.
Unfortunately there is no ‘safe route’ through this minefield and even the best and most honest insurers might try to avoid paying out if they feel that someone else was negligent at one of their meetings, and the same is true for any track day organiser or venue operator. We could go on with ‘what ifs’ for ever but the bottom line is ‘cover you own backside’. Make sure you go with competent organisers who give good briefings, make sure your car is up to the job, make sure any passenger you take out has signed the indemnity etc. If you do not have Insurance cover for your car then there is no way you can make a claim. If you do have insurance (which by the very nature of the topic is likely to be limited in scope so check the policy )and you need to make a claim then we are back to the ‘opinions’ battle again but, at least you will have a head start and they will have to wriggle or prove negligence on your part to avoid paying out - losing control is not negligent, it is unfortunate but then, the underwriter or judge may or may not see it that way!
If the worst happens you can stand proudly in court and convince the judge that you took all reasonable precautions and that is why he should throw out the claim aginst you from your injured passenger or other third party or, conversley, that your insurer should pay out for the damage to your car etc. etc.
There is no safe haven. Just be sensible and you should be OK.
I am not a lawyer or an underwriter so all the above is IMHO of course!
Regards
Thanks for that Mike, but if anything, I’m left slightly more cautious by it. If, for instance, your toe-link popped and led to an injury, that could mean you haven’t taken enough care with your vehicle? [Retorical question]
Anyway, I don’t intend it affect my fun/enjoyment/thrills/etc!
Ian
Thanks for that Mike, but if anything, I’m left slightly more cautious by it. …Anyway, I don’t intend it affect my fun/enjoyment/thrills/etc!
Ian
Hi Ian,
I think that was my point - there is no insurance policy in the world that can prevent someone from sueing you and that is why signing an idemnity is not enough to totally protect the organiser or anyone who signs it. What it does do is make any claim for negligence difficult to prove as both ‘discharge of responsibility’ and ‘acceptance of responsibility’ have been actioned.
Taking reasonable precautions is the best you can do and that is why you are quite right to not let it spoil your fun.
Regards