Settings for Öhlins (Cup circuit list)

Mr_Pesky · 20 March 2006 18:54

The 240 Cup car is ment to be the european race car, and should therefor be more then capable of with standing a joe public trackday, especially given what I paid for it.
This has pi55ed me off abit and I don’t mean to have a pop at anyone here. I just want to be able to complete a trackday, and not waste half the money I’ve spent booking it.

That’s fair enough, & someone at the factory should be capable of sorting it out. Have you spoken directly with the Motorsport Dept yet? Suggest you speak with Russ Gibbons there, he’s a really good bloke, & he will hopefully be able to help you resolve the issue (even if he is unable to personally do so, by pointing you in the right direction).

Fingers crossed.

simondann111s · 20 March 2006 19:08

Here you go, any ideas welcome.
The off side photos appear brighter as that’s the side of my garage window. I assure you that all disks are about the same colour and the marks circled look the same on both sides of the car.

My theory would be that the pads are leaving uneven deposits on the disks. Don’t know why this should be, but I suspect its heat related as it only happen on track.

The photos were taken after the 60 mile trip home so some of the marks have diminished.

[image]SELOC | Lotus Enthusiasts Club
[image]SELOC | Lotus Enthusiasts Club
[image]SELOC | Lotus Enthusiasts Club

[image]SELOC | Lotus Enthusiasts Club

Nico · 20 March 2006 19:17

Oooh hasn’t he got pale legs!

Seriously now, crossdrilling doesn’t do an awful lot for brakes apart from reduce the friction area, they’re supposed to let gases and dust escape (and slightly reduce weight) but that’s exactly what the grooves do, and do much better.
Strange that the internal vanes weren’t straight if the discs were meant to be used all round too.

Spot on! Not only that but holes tend to create a stress point, and are the origin of cracks.

And instead of strange I would say it’s silly on a performance car like these. Cost cutting there is just plain stupid.

The only good cross ‘drilled’ brake discs are from Porsche. As I understand that’s because they are not actually drilled but moulded (is that the right term?).

Nico

Azrael · 20 March 2006 19:27

No worries Simon you have every right to be at least a little wound up over this.

Interesting that the OSF has some of the most prominent marks and that most of the crossdrillings seem to be bunged up.

Here’s a long shot. Does the 240 cup have differnt wheels? and could they be adversely affecting any brake cooling effect?

simondann111s · 20 March 2006 19:54

Interesting that the OSF has some of the most prominent marks and that most of the crossdrillings seem to be bunged up.

Here’s a long shot. Does the 240 cup have differnt wheels? and could they be adversely affecting any brake cooling effect?

The wheels are the standard cast alloy, 8-Y spoke but with a high power silver paint. I was wondering if it could be the position of the oil coolers at the front, maybe restricting the airflow? Only trouble with that theory is that no one else seems to be having the same problem.

The marks are just as prominent on both sides, it’s just that the light doesn’t get to the near side of the car in my garage, so they appear different in the photos.

I don’t loose brakeing force, and no brake fade either. They firstly develope a very load rumble, then start to judder/vibrate untill it gets undrivable. Letting them cool down helps, but even after 40 of no use it only take 2 laps to start again, and one of those laps is slow to warm the tyres…

I would say dodgy pads, but this is the second set (and disks!) and RS14s have never let me down before.

Simon

tim_marra · 20 March 2006 20:35

[/quote]
I don’t loose brakeing force, and no brake fade either. They firstly develope a very load rumble, then start to judder/vibrate untill it gets undrivable. Letting them cool down helps, but even after 40 of no use it only take 2 laps to start again, and one of those laps is slow to warm the tyres…
[/quote]

When is this happening in relation to the ABS cutting in?

Tim.

Uldis · 20 March 2006 20:39

Simon, what you’re describing is EXACTLY what I experienced when I bought My Exige new.
After the same happened (at 200 miles) they got changed on warranty. When the same happened to that second set of OEM disks I mentioned that probably the best solution would be to install some real race disks, to which they promptly said that if I did, the warranty would be off.

So I let them install yet another set of new disks and pads.
Guess what happened on the very next trackday: the same.

It is then that I went my way and installed myself a set of Eliseparts alloy belled. They were running blue and destroying any pads I installed, filling and plugging the holes and started to warp slightly.
I blamed it on the fact that they were drilled AND grooved AND very thin (yes, they were running blue as well)

So I got another set directly from Hi Spec, just grooved.
Guess what? the same warping/juddering and overheating. This time Hi Spec took them back to check them and resurface them. My analysis was that they were again very thin and they were unbalanced (you could see the casting vanes were eccentric with the machining)

At least when they returned they worked Ok, but they were still blue.

Now all this tells you something: you and me don’t drive like most other people. Good or bad we’re heavier on the brakes and that’s the way I want it to be, I need my equipment to be able to withstand the braking that I need, not me adapting to some silly system dsigned for 95% of the people.

This is why I decided to make mine work.
From my analysis the original calipers are ok for the job, BUT the pads are slightly on the small size for our type of braking. The smaller swept area build heat quicker than it would with 4 piston calipers (or a more gentle driver). The solution (without changing to bigger pads… i.e. 4 piston calipers) would be to cool the disks then.
Difficult on the 284mm’s because the vanes spacing is too little, so the area is smaller than it could be. Also the bell inside would be too small. 295 works.

Notice that on the original disks there is NO WAY of cooling them properly because the inside plane is attached to the hub centre, making proper ducting impossible.
This is needed if making the disks in one piece because you need some more material to expand, otherwise it would just crack immediately.
The alloy belled system expands and moves in the bolts.
The aftermarket disks are much thicker and wider, giving more internal vane area and stability to warping.

The immediate solution to your disks is… throw them away, you’ll never get anywhere with them. Wake up, you brake very much like me.

Some 295mm AP’s will work, and then you should work on some ducting solution.

Sorry, and welcome to the club

PS - as Pesky said, talk to Russell Gibbons, he’ll probably point you in the right direction

Mr_Pesky · 20 March 2006 21:03

Simon/Uldis

Purely for clarity purposes, copied from the Lotus Cars web info re 240 Cup:

[color:“blue”] Brakes Servo-assisted, track tuned 4-channel Anti-lock Braking System (ABS) with Lotus/AP-Racing twin-piston fixed aluminium alloy front brake calipers, Brembo single-piston sliding rear calipers and [color:“red”]288 mm diameter, [color:“blue”]26 mm thick front and rear cast iron ventilated cross-drilled discs[/color:blue]

South240R · 20 March 2006 21:40

This is very interesting as I’ve been tracking my 240R hard for a while now… I’m not easy on a car and used to race to I’m definately on the pace for the capabilities of the car’s brakes… I’ve had no problems at all with them. You’ve clearly got overheating pads there, hence the deposits, why is the strange thing?? The only difference between the Cup and R is the wheels… would amaze me though if there is that much difference in cooling, but the R wheels are very open. To be honest I was very impressed with them and had expected to have to upgrade then…

Just out of interest what sort of braking technique do you use?? Build pressure over a couple of seconds and at full retard just before turn in release them or hard on the back off as you judge the turn in position or just quick hard application then off the peddle at turn in?? Each approach causes different heat profiles.

The strange thing is I’ve had more trouble playing with tyre pressures to get consistent turn in without overheating the front tyres.

simondann111s · 20 March 2006 22:27

Simon, what you’re describing is EXACTLY what I experienced when I bought My Exige new.
After the same happened (at 200 miles) they got changed on warranty. When the same happened to that second set of OEM disks I mentioned that probably the best solution would be to install some real race disks, to which they promptly said that if I did, the warranty would be off.

So I let them install yet another set of new disks and pads.
Guess what happened on the very next trackday: the same.

It is then that I went my way and installed myself a set of Eliseparts alloy belled. They were running blue and destroying any pads I installed, filling and plugging the holes and started to warp slightly.
I blamed it on the fact that they were drilled AND grooved AND very thin (yes, they were running blue as well)

So I got another set directly from Hi Spec, just grooved.
Guess what? the same warping/juddering and overheating. This time Hi Spec took them back to check them and resurface them. My analysis was that they were again very thin and they were unbalanced (you could see the casting vanes were eccentric with the machining)

At least when they returned they worked Ok, but they were still blue.

Now all this tells you something: you and me don’t drive like most other people. Good or bad we’re heavier on the brakes and that’s the way I want it to be, I need my equipment to be able to withstand the braking that I need, not me adapting to some silly system dsigned for 95% of the people.

This is why I decided to make mine work.
From my analysis the original calipers are ok for the job, BUT the pads are slightly on the small size for our type of braking. The smaller swept area build heat quicker than it would with 4 piston calipers (or a more gentle driver). The solution (without changing to bigger pads… i.e. 4 piston calipers) would be to cool the disks then.
Difficult on the 284mm’s because the vanes spacing is too little, so the area is smaller than it could be. Also the bell inside would be too small. 295 works.

Notice that on the original disks there is NO WAY of cooling them properly because the inside plane is attached to the hub centre, making proper ducting impossible.
This is needed if making the disks in one piece because you need some more material to expand, otherwise it would just crack immediately.
The alloy belled system expands and moves in the bolts.
The aftermarket disks are much thicker and wider, giving more internal vane area and stability to warping.

The immediate solution to your disks is… throw them away, you’ll never get anywhere with them. Wake up, you brake very much like me.

Some 295mm AP’s will work, and then you should work on some ducting solution.

Sorry, and welcome to the club

PS - as Pesky said, talk to Russell Gibbons, he’ll probably point you in the right direction

That is very interesting. Sorry, but I’m rather pleased that I’m not the only one this has happened to. As I’m on the second set of disks & pads already, I’m not sure what to do now. I see no reason why I should have to fork out ï¿½xxxs for an upgraded set of brakes. Lets see what Lotus say about it. Fit for purpose comes to mind, and the more people that have had this problen the better…

SeanB · 20 March 2006 23:47

I’m pretty hard on brakes as well. I pretty much followed Uldis’s route of upgrading to Elise parts disks, but found them not much better. In the end I went for the Lotus motorsport kit. 4 pots and 295’s on the font and 2 pots and 295’s on the back. I also now use performance friction pads and I have to say IMO my brakes are now off the radar!!!

At the end of the day, Physics says, bigger disks equaly more leverage. In this case (like most others) size does count and bigger is most definitly better!!

Sean…

Uldis · 21 March 2006 10:28

I think with the long post I was not clear on the fact that I went to Ekise parts but didn’t like them.

The 295’s that I went for were not AP but Mutsnuts (and they work very well thank you ) and the best pads I’ve tried were for feel and braking power Mintex F4R

Unfortunately their dust sticks so much to the wheels that I had to sand blast and re-powder coat them to remove it!

Need a new set of pads now but dread of going back to F4R’s.

Sean, how do the PF ones stack in this respect? Do they have std sizes as well?
Any good, expert supplier of PF that you’d recommend?

Uldis · 21 March 2006 10:29

That is very interesting. Sorry, but I’m rather pleased that I’m not the only one this has happened to. As I’m on the second set of disks & pads already, I’m not sure what to do now. I see no reason why I should have to fork out ï¿½xxxs for an upgraded set of brakes. Lets see what Lotus say about it. Fit for purpose comes to mind, and the more people that have had this problen the better…

Just for clarification, mine is an S1, so don’t think Lotus would listen to me now

Uldis · 21 March 2006 10:32

Just out of interest what sort of braking technique do you use?? Build pressure over a couple of seconds and at full retard just before turn in release them or hard on the back off as you judge the turn in position or just quick hard application then off the peddle at turn in?? Each approach causes different heat profiles.

The strange thing is I’ve had more trouble playing with tyre pressures to get consistent turn in without overheating the front tyres.

In my case is the third one.
On at max braking power from the beginning, as late as possible and release as I’m turning in.

Play a lot with tyre pressures as well.

South240R · 21 March 2006 11:39

Hard on and off the brakes is the best way to keep them intact for track use… so I guess that means I’m not trying hard enough… or the open wheels on the 240R and the fact none of the track days have been over about 7C air temp has just kept them alive… will find out for sure during two days at Spa very soon…

Nico · 21 March 2006 11:58

Hard on and off the brakes is the best way to keep them intact for track use…

That’s how I understand it too. I normally overcooke the brakes just because I am not brave enough and brake too early and way too long. (not yet tried on the Exige though as I am picking up mine next wednesday)

SeanB · 22 March 2006 00:45

Sean, how do the PF ones stack in this respect? Do they have std sizes as well?
Any good, expert supplier of PF that you’d recommend?

The PF pads do create a fair bit of dust and they are pretty hard on the disks, but in my experiance they are the best pads I have used. Plus I have never had any problem, simply washing the dust off the wheels / car.

You can buy them directly from performance Friction. There number is: 01280 843390

I know they do pads for the two pots as I have those omn the back of my car. They are very helpful, so give them a call and I am sure they will be able to sort you out.

Sean…

Uldis · 22 March 2006 11:53

Thanks, will speak to them.
Was just on their site and saw they have numerous different compounds. Which one is the one you’re using?

SeanB · 22 March 2006 18:19

I have the ‘01’ compound all round.

speedyK · 22 March 2006 23:09

To get back to the original thread topic…

I just got back from 2 days at Hockenheim and had the ï¿½hlins as the dealer had set them up (compromise road/track). It was wet, cold and slippy going there just over 400km ï¿½ it was also dark by the time I hit a stretch of autobahn clear enough to see what the Bemani supercharger can do (got to an indicated 260kmh and rising before I had to back off). Ride seemed a little choppy on some surfaces, but quite tied down even when travelling quickly.

The last afternoon gave us a dry track for the free training sessions. This car is a dream come true ï¿½ actually reeled in and overtook a 911 GT3 on the start-finish straight (though that wasn’t on with the GT2s). Had a fantastic scrap with an F360 too ï¿½ neck and neck ï¿½ he said afterwards he couldn’t believe a little Lotus could perform like that

I found the suspension set-up fine as it was, so goodness knows how good it must be if you know how to fine tune it. Actually had more problems with the gearbox ï¿½ still getting used to the narrow gate ï¿½ nearly lost it entering the Parabolica when I changed from second and, instead of third, I got first ï¿½ soon realised on account of sideways car and sky high revs , but dipped the clutch smartish and collected it all up before it got away from me ï¿½ not something I want to do too much. Also had the same thing going from second and getting fifth instead of third ï¿½ not so dramatic but still frustrating…

As you are all talking about brakes, I can say that I had no probs with the stock Cup set-up. In contrast, on the same track with Pagid RS14s on my old Speedster (VX220) with solid discs, they were cooked and blotchy as in the pics above with resulting vibrations. Also the wider Yokos are a huge improvement over the Bridgestones ï¿½ seemed to claw into the tarmac coming into the hairpin from over 230kmh ï¿½ better stopping power than I was getting from 200kmh in the Speedster.

I’m really made up with the Cup with Bemani ï¿½ now if I can just master this narrow gearbox gate…