Rogered 1900K engine

I’ve now had around a dozen failed engines here in the last year, the latest one, in last Saturday had only run for around 5 minutes when it jettisoned coolnat from the exhaust. The owner had assumed some sort of catastrophic HGF and brough the engine over. The results are as shown below.

Bore scoring from badly fitted piston pins, 3 bores were affected this way.

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Now that is a real failed engine…

I have a few more of other failures.

Dave

The problem is a little broader then simply forgetting the circlips.

I will be talking to the original builder before making any comment or disclosure here, just as I have previously on many occasions following examination of failed engines I have here. He will be examining the parts for himself before making any comment is made.

I too have a pile of failed parts, in most cases these have been offerred to the original builders for comment, the replies vary from the helpful, to the belligerent. None of this helps the customer who is often badly placed to converse at the correct level to make any headway.

Until the situations are resolved to the customers satisfaction I will be making no comments, as part of the remedial arrangements the customers may prefer not to publish details. I prefer that views of mine are tempered with a response from the originator, a right to reply is enshrined in the constitution.

Dave

Next I suppose cats and dogs will be living together harmoniously .

Another rogered engine to chew on, less than 600 miles after ground up build with some fairly exotic components.

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Gack!!

Dave

Wow, thats a guddun. What sort of oil system was that using Dave? Dry sump? Oil Cooler? I reckon if I ever build an engine which revs significantly higher than it was meant to I’ll be doing some analysis on the oil pressure inside the crank first.

Could be worth sticking a shim under the PRV Spring?

Does anyone run “ported” oil pumps?

Simon,

The carbon line is often uneven, that doesn’t mean the bores are out of round. The piston thrust in the bore can cause the piston to tilt over the centre line of the pin, often this can cause contact between the piston land and the bore, this can remove the carbon… Also that is the induction side of the bore where fuel can easily wash away carbon deposits… depending on the timing of the injectors (batched/grouped or sequential) some bores will see more fuel wash then others.

When you have seen as many bores as I have you can see the signs…

Bob,

It was running a dry sump… I routinely port the pumps and ladders/blocks to improve oil feed to the bearings, especially the feeds to mains 2 and 4 which also supply the big-ends. On rebuild this was routinely done on the engine shown. Quite often the oilways as cast are appalling and this is an area almost always ignored.

The stock pumps PRV is set quite high and is always checked for correct seating. .

I’d rather not give any more details without the owner’s permission.

Dave

Is big end 4 a bit discoloured or is it just the photo?

When you have seen as many bores as I have you can see the signs…

I’ve heard a few in my time too - mainly so called financial advisers!

on the plus side, that block did look nice in gold…!

“I’ve heard a few in my time too - mainly so called financial advisers!”

Kind of walked into that one…

Bob,

It’s big-end one, and yes it has seen some action, it’s not uncommon on siamese drilled cranks for the connected crankpin to suffer, debris can shunt to the other pin fairly easily once oiling to the failing bearing is interrupted, this can cause a knock-on failure.

The replacement block is au natural.

Dave

That’s some good photography there Dave.

You obviously didn’t read my posting properly. The timing of the injectors can have a significant impact on bore washing.

And it’s pretty senseless trying to press a point when you haven’t examined the parts in question. A sample of one or two liners is hardly a convincing argument. I have seen hundreds.

If you believe you have an issue with Scholar, tken take it up with them. Otherwise, trying to drub them on the evidence of a single photo from a low mileage engine that has uneven carbon build up just isn’t sensible.

If you look carefully at the carbon line on your lower picture you will see that the carbon build up is lower on the thrust side of the liner, does that prove anything… no.

Now lets move on to something more productive.

Dave

Simon,

THE CRANK LADDER IS DIE CAST IN LM24, AND ALTHOUGH THERE ARE SHUT LINES IN THE OIL FEEDS TO THE MAINS WHICH SHOULD ALWAYS BE DRILLED OUT, THE CHANCES OF BLOCKAGE ARE REMOTE - BECAUSE IT IS NOT AN INVESTMENT CASTING. WERE THESE OILWAYS ‘APPALLING’ THERE WOULD BE ANY NUMBER OF STOCK ENGINES FAILING.

Both the crank ladder and block oilways can be dire. Especially the block oilways under the shell. As you know we are not talking here about the ability of the stock engine to survive marginal oiling, we are talking about engines with twice the bearing loads and much higher crank speeds, your comments dont make sense. Very often the oil feeds are misaligned with their intended target quite significantly due to casting/machiningg shift in more than one dimension, this seriously compromises the delivery of oil, if this afflicts mains 2 & 4 where delivery requirement is much higher then it is too risky to leave the misaligned oilway on the basis that it was OK on a standard engine, it must be corrected.

The feeds from the ladder are usually 2-3 times the cross sectional area of the oilways that they meet in the block. These also need correction. You don’t need a blockage to have a failure, you just need the oiling to fall slightly below the minimum requirement.

CLEARLY THAT IS NOT THE CASE AND PRESUMABLY THIS BLOCK RAN WITHOUT PUTTING THE RODS THROUGH THE BLOCK BEFORE YOU REBUILT IT?

Err… pardon? before who rebuilt it? There is clearly a problem with that engine no question, I will not comment any more. Simply to state that I rebuilt it after the failure, since the block was scrap I cant comment on the condition of the oilways, but in my experience many of them are dire and in need of attention. and I’ve seen a lot more of them than you have.

The stock pumps PRV is set quite high and is always checked for correct seating. .

THE STOCK PRESSURE RELIEF VALVE SHOULD ALWAYS BE REPLACED
In your opinion

, PARTICULARLY ON AN ENGINE CONVERTED TO MECHANICAL TAPPETS [IN WHICH CASE THE OILING TO THE HEAD SHOULD BE MODIFIED - ALTHOUGH THAT IS NOT SOMETHING I HAVE SEEN ON ANY OF THE DVA HEADS I HAVE HERE] WITH AN ADJUSTABLE RELIEF VALVE SO THE OIL PRESSURE CAN BE SET.

I dont believe that it is absolutely necessary, I will sometimes restrict the oilways to the followers which are vestigal. And sometimes fit a restrictor to the oil feed from the pump.

A GOOD DRY SUMP SHOULD ALSO HAVE A PRESSURE ADJUSTMENT. DO I TAKE IT THIS ENGINE DID NOT? MAY I TAKE IT THAT THE DRY SUMP WAS THE STD CATERHAM /TITAN SET UP? - WHICH IS SO POOR IT SHOULD BE DUMPED IN FAVOUR OF AT LEAST A BAFFLED WET SUMP , WITHOUT QUESTION.

Simon, just what has that got to do with anything? As I said I will be giving no more details about the engine since I dont believe it is my place to be discussing details of it’s original build without due reference to the original builders.

You really ought to do your research before advocating a baffled sump without knowing the details of the installation. Anyone who knows anything about the Caterham sump would find your suggestion of fitted a baffled sump in preferene to any dry sump setup laughable.

HOWEVER HAD THE PUMP BEEN THE ISSUE IN THIS CASE ALL PINS AND MAINS WOULD HAVE SUFFERED. CLEARLY THIS IS AN ISSUE WITH ONLY NO 2 AND 1 PINS WHICH SHOULD BOTH BE FED FROM NO 2 MAINS.

You get the prize for stating the bleedin’ obvious.

THERE WOULD SEEM TO BE A PROBLEM WITH THE BUILD OR THE CRANK???

You get the prize for stating the bleedin’ obvious once again.

Dave

AND YES I DO HAVE A MAJOR ISSUE WITH SCHOLARS WORK.

Then take it up with Scholar, as they have invited you to some 6 months ago.

Dave

Hi Dave, I can see that BEs 1 and 2 are gone but I couldn’t say for sure that no 4 wasn’t a little “tanned”?

The dry sump question was just trying to gauge the amount of aeration in the system which increases the minimum pressure required in the gallery to prevent BE failure. My old engine revved through to 7800 on a stock pump and has about 4 bar when hot. I dont consider 4 Bar to be that high in the 8000rpm and above engine league.

I have seen engines with marginal aeration and pressure selectively wreck big ends before though. It just reminded me of one of those.

But I guess given that this doesn’t happen to every high revving K series that its a build problem though.

Bob,

My guess it that it is a build issue, however that is between the owner and the builder, considering the use to which the engine was put I’d be surprised if it was down to anything else. Can’t say I spotted any problem on pin 4, the first photo has pin 1 on the left, the second has pin 1 on the right…

It’s not uncommon for knock on effects in the engine to be seen when a bearing fails so dratically as the sump strainer becomes increasingly clogged with debris and the scavenge pump efficiency drops rapidly.

Aeration is less of a problem with the dry sump, with the stock sump even on a static test rig, aeration levels get very high at fairly modest RPM, this usually manifest itself in rattling followers (if hydraulic), imagine what that is doing to your bearings…

Sorting out the oilways to and from the pump thru the side of the ladder will reduce pumping losses and ensure the pumps energy isnt wasted on eddy currents in the oil. further work to the rest of the delivery system should help.

Dave