I have seldom seen so much effort in the investigation of a subject. And so much logic put into it.
Many people, in all disciplines tend to base themselves on experience only, and if correct thinking is not put to the subject, i.e. “root cause analysis” it is very common to circle around the problem, try too many things and get dissappointed.
Being an engineer myself and a great advocate of root cause analysis, coming from a field where an error means lifes (oilfield services: explosives, radiation, extreme conditions, etc) I personally like what Simon has come up with.
Besides, I have this thing on keeping the K, and keeping it light.
Many people here know me and have a reference to how I drive, what my car can do.
I will go Simon’s way (in fact, starting to dissassemble everything tomorrow). Keep an eye on my car, it will be interesting to see and compare the results
However please dont quote this as “Simon’s way” all that you will be doing is building it correctly.
All the logic is very sound, this has not been disputed, however one thing i would ask Simon about is the use of VP2 bearings (i can’t remember seeing any mention of these) rather than the soft Rover items !
Simon’s last post was great info until the mention of the Duratec and Honda We are talking about the K here so please let us drop the comparision to anything else.
It’s all down to personal choice and thoughts on what we do on our engines/cars and following the info Simon has supplied the engines will last a lot longer between rebuilds, the word “bulletproof” can not be used for ANY tuned engine regardless of the manufacturer.
Thanks for your input, we have had 3 of Simons friends post now, but unfortunatly none of you have had the reliable 220 bhp/160 ftlb engines that was quoted in his first post.
Not that it really matters and for the record my engine was at 220/150 and has lasted me 12K miles with nothing done to the bottom end However this was only because i was so impatient to getting everything back together after waiting many months for Dave to do my head. Next time the bottom end is being done
I love working on my engine, for me its part of the ownership of it so rebuilds etc are just as fun as driving it
Personally i know a lot of Elise’s that are quick but at the end of the day it’s down to the driver’s skill, even with your uprated car, i doubt that you would even catch Uldis, let alone overtake him - So no bragging please it just pi**es everyone off.
" I might say that the problems with after market components and balancing is a problem for all engines and I would have no faith as a Duratec owner in any of the lightweight flywheels produced for that engine. I have no evidence, but I would be surprised if the same is not true for Honda, etc."
Were did you get this info from? The same “head engineer” at Mugen that thought the FC20 used iVTEC?
But basically your arguement comes down to this
“there is a big long list of things that need doing to a K series to get it going nicely and stop it going bang, and here is my list. If done I think your should see 220 bhp without reliability issues. Sadly I can’t point at one that has done so using my recipe and no pricing (including hourly rates) either.”
YOu should really stick to looking at the k series as well becuse your sweeping generalisations don’t really work - aluminium ally blocks with high silcon content don;t really work in the ways you imagine, and “all of the above for any engine to run @ 220 at high revs on track”, well what about all the JDM K20s running at this sort of level straight out of the box?
OK Simon, you�ve told us how us how it should be done, now let�s see some examples of the K engine that�s cheap, makes the power and stays together. In particular, some examples of the engines that comply with statements made by you during this forum discussion.
�Done right the engine is bomb proof and more than a match for any other naturally aspirated engine including any Honda or Toyota and will always be 30-40 kilos lighter.�
�A really basic 200bhp 150lbft@ 3000rpm is very easy and cheap to do, it is just getting it done right that’s important.�
�A totally blue printed engine with 230/240bhp with all the best bits and high tec coatings dry sump etc would cost about 5grand plus labour.�
�Given an appropriate standard of build the K will be bombproof as a naturally aspirated engine, 240bhp absolutely no problem.�
Lets define reliable as say 20,000 road miles or 2000 track miles without something major failing. Can you give us some examples of 1.8 litre K engines in Elises or Exiges with power curves available that meet these statements ?
I�m not saying that the K engine can�t do this, all I�m saying is that it is neither as easy nor as cheap as you seem to be implying. Taking your list on the previous page, I agree that all the measurements shown should be within tolerance.
But:
There are very few places in the country that could even measure some of them accurately enough and would charge a fortune for doing so.
A lot of the dimensions, if out of tolerance would not be fixable economically.
And what are the tolerances anyway ?
wind up mode on/
From a design team on a limited budget and as a 1.4 litre shopping trolley engine designed in the 80�s it was a great innovation. But as a robust engine at 120+ BHP/litre I don�t think so.
wind up mode off/
Hallo. No offence intended with my pulling over comment. I don’t rate myself and am one of the most courteous trackday driver’s you could ever hope to come up behind. I’m out to enjoy myself, not prove a point, but it’s hard to do that without an empty track ahead given trackday rules. Surely we’ve all had it - the guy with a car almost as quick but who brakes early or pussies about in corners and has enough power that you can’t pass him on the straight without co-operation, hence my mirrors comment.
Surely we’ve all had it - the guy with a car almost as quick but who brakes early or pussies about in corners and has enough power that you can’t pass him on the straight without co-operation, hence my mirrors comment.
Hallo. No offence intended with my pulling over comment. I don’t rate myself and am one of the most courteous trackday driver’s you could ever hope to come up behind. I’m out to enjoy myself, not prove a point, but it’s hard to do that without an empty track ahead given trackday rules. Surely we’ve all had it - the guy with a car almost as quick but who brakes early or pussies about in corners and has enough power that you can’t pass him on the straight without co-operation, hence my mirrors comment.
I agree - been there - suffered that…
I just slow down and let a gap develop, and then cruise up to the back of them again !!
its alright for all you experts out there to pour scorn on (or should that be ‘at’ ?? ) Simon, but from where I sit… Simon has been nothing less than well mannered and helpful. He has positioned in one place an excellent account which seems to me to be aimed at helping those of us who would like to ‘stay natural’ with the original engine and has compared it with Hondas and Fords and Audis simply because these are the engines that people are actively putting into our exiges and elises, and even more simply Simon likes his K… just like we like our roofs… some folk make a tidy living out of the K but not, AFAIK, Simon
I can understand why those of you who have lots of practical experince (not all good ones i bet) feel miffed but i really don’t understand why you have to level some fairly unreasonable remarks at someone who at the VERY WORST could only be condemned for repeating practical common sense…
me… i never saw so much common sense in one place and some of it for the first time… and i spent just as many hours as the rest of you in the past 2 years searching the World Wide Wait for it…
so for me … like my mates always say… “if you don’t like it you can make like an ostrich”… (actually we make no reference to Struthio camelus and use some guid scots vernacular instead )
just remember from the Honda advert “what if ?”
up the underdogs… and to the doubters… ich dien… to keep the ostrich analogy…
Vorsprung durch teknik… though maybe not in blighty
And Rox! Spot on! But I gues Simon’s got a full on intro to internet forums, where b1tching and slagging to the level that’d you never do to even your nemesis’ face is mandortory
OK, I agree with you Rox. There has maybe been too much bitching on here. I have spoken to Simon on the phone in the past and also met him and he is a nice enough guy.
But, looking at it from the point of view of someone who has done a lot of K tuning and had the first DVA conversion in an Elise way back in 98 what he is saying does not stack up with the facts.
Basically he is saying is that we have all been spending money buying poor quality performance parts for the engine when there is nothing wrong with the original parts in first place.
He also gave some performance BHP and torque numbers that have never been achieved in a reliable engine for the costs stated. I and others have said before, there is nothing wrong with the engine except that if you want over 180 BHP reliably then you have to be prepared to throw 95% of it away.
Even tho we have never met or spoken, i have nothing but respect for you and I know a little about some of your (pretty well) documented competency in the field…/ not to be sniffed at and for me you have been pretty innovative… I like innovation…
Although, I haven’t really picked up the vibe that Simon is telling us all we’ve been buying poor quality parts… more a case of we shouldn’t be spending �10k on conversions when we can use our own originals (well except us lot running VHPD’s !! ) buy a minimum set of replacement bits and tweak the rest into tolerance/balance for an outlay that is way way less than the cost of a conversion. The result will be a good solid reliable K with decent power. If people doubt this or choose not to do this then they should be happy in their decision, it would be useful if they simply stated some facts and experience’s that led them to make their own decisions along the way rather than start making like he is some kinda looney…
Then for a bigger spend (up to �5k + labour) Simon suggests you can go much further and build something which is pretty extreme for a NA 1.8litre motor.
okay okay… so if the power/torque/reliability stuff doesn’t quite stack up - esp for those that have the practical experience - then fine and challenges in this area are warranted (i’m prepared to be more open minded at this stage), but some of the stuff (not only on this thread but more so across the way… ) being written is just plain unnecesary… and actually comes across a little ‘mines bigger than yours mate’ which isn’t helpful.
Anyway, i’m learning all the time… long may it continue…
I get the feeling that you both are talking about the same.
If you put both opinions together you end up with:
-spending lots of money on parts, of probably good design and concept, but badly executed, because not everybody has a balancing machine with enough precision. Don’t worry there, not your fault, you probably sent them to be balanced and they came back to you “balanced”. You used them, they break. Not your fault.
-having to throw away 95% of the parts precisely because of being not optimally balanced. Again, not your fault.
From what I hear, Simon is only mentioning how critical is the K engine to these things, and that you can’t build it to the same tolerances as others, they have to be just much tighter on this so optimized package.
I read on Seloc’s Scuffham’s and Johnboy’s opinion.
Not very good, but then Scuffham is an empyrical guy. And he’s building a Honda now. Besides, he seems to be very hard on his machine.
Even Scuffham’s previous posts regarding the fragility of the VHPD crank compared to the std one make sense now. Remember when TT broke his? he told us that it was a well known fact, VHPD cranks brake and that the best was the std one.
Of course now we know that the std one is much better balanced. Does it all add up?
And this to me is precisely the difference between thinking (proper root cause analysis) and empirical knowledge.
And Johnboy, well, I would expect him to say that, after all he does the Honda conversion.
so to the people i have been in contact with recently.
does this mean i am wasting my money then…
the problem we face is that when we all decide we want more power, and our wallets are bulging… where do you go?
ok so there are some people who you get recomendations for, but who is to say, they didnt go out the night before and get pissed and now they have to put your liner shells in they couldnt give a S***, they would rather go home and have a sleep.
i dont trust anyone anymore…except dva perhaps
by the way to have my manifold ceramic coated is 180 quid from camcoat supposed to drop engine bay temp dramatically.
now where is kingK’s number…?
by the way, have decided to do the lot myself…aircon is coming out thanks philD.
I agree that 6-8k is a lot of money and that if the K can be made to “cut the mustard” at half the price then obviously that would be the way to go. I honestly hope that Simon has found a way to do this. Looks like Uldis is going down this route so let’s all see how it goes.