I bet you couldn’t get a 1.8 litre bike engine to rev that fast though…
what is the highest revving production bike engine these days, anyone know?
what is the highest revving production bike engine these days, anyone know?
Well the GP honda bikes rev to 18k and are 1000cc… But production wise most of the top bikes are ~16krpm. There’s a Kawasake ZXR250 which rev’s to 18k but that’s a 2 stroker so doesn’t count
But then 'busa engines only rev to 9 - 10k which isn’t to impressive for a 1.3 
But then to my mind 'busa’s are fat muscle lumps, not a proper sports bike
But getting a 1.6 to rev to say 12k should be feasable and reliable to a certain degree IYSWIM… Interestingly the 4A-GE is a massively tunable engine, loads of parts and infio about for the wee 1.6 Have a look at Bill Sherwood's Modified 4AGE Page
Wow, what an entertaining thread - just discovered it an hour ago! Otherwise I would have disclosed myself earlier as one of the friends, Simon Erland mentioned, using one of his cylinder heads in my Elise. But then again the specification I set up for my engine is not completely in tune with the 200+BHP requirement discussed so far.
I use my car abount 50/50% on the road and on tracks doing club-level racing and trackdays. I wanted it to remain street legal in Switzerland including its stringent pollution regulations. So I focused to torque and drivability (for public road use). The “famous Daves” (Andrews and Walker) guided me to Piper 623 camshafts and an Emerald M3dK which together with Simon’s cylinder head sporting Paul Ivey valves is producing 165 BHP and 200 Nm (145 lb.ft?). Nothing spectacular, but very reliable for the last 16’000 miles and very driveable and easily conforming to Swiss air pollution laws. The bottom end is fully stock. A check of the liners’ positions confirmed their standing proud close to the upper tolernace limit, so I didn’t even take it apart as it had less that 10’000 miles on the clock when I did the conversion. What I did though is replace the thermostat with Geary’s remote thingy and fit a oil/water heat exchanger. Before that I saw over 130� in Dijon in summer 2003.
So, what is the conclusion: I am happy with the K in its present state of tune, it gives me the grunt I need. To become faster I need to tune my driving skills. Not easy but fun and I believe that’s what driving Elises (and its derivatives) is all about.
18K rpm… thats pretty impressive.
I have alot of experience with cosworth DFV engines of various spec from 3.3 to 3.8 (best engine ive ever driven) and they are the most reliable race engines I have ever used although they rev pretty hard. The hardest revving one I used was a 3.5 litre DFR of a similar spec used in F1 in 1990. They revved them to well over 14K in F1 but we used 10.5K and it was bloody reliable.
Simon - How many road miles do you recon you can get out of one of your engines running with power equivilent to a Honda?
Much of what’s been said on here is way over my head.
I’m quite happy to say though that Simon and Steve (Vibration Free) helped me put my engine together over a year and 6,000 (road) miles ago and I’ve never had so much as a hiccup.
I know where I’ll be going when I get around to the next project.
Whats the spec on your engine PaulC?
X posting this for Simon Scuffham
Predictable I guess
"The bearings suffer like this - on any engine, any make - when the recipricating elements, i.e. crank, flywheel, clutch, are badly balanced. I had this discussion with Simon at length. It was his decision to not take advantage of this and therefore his engine’s performance does not surprise me. Apparently, his old K came back from his last race with it full of gravel from a gravel trap. I wonder if that was the engine’s fault too. "
yes, right, that would be it then…
more total b0ll0cks, but then what else can one expect?
Like I ran a totally un-balanced engine, (and as if QED would build one like that).
As for the gravel trap comment, apart from being completely untrue, it�s just another flippant comment to discredit the point I was making (hence not wanting to get involved in the thread in the first place.
Funny how EDL are specifying 3,000 mile re-builds? I wonder why that is��…? (or do they not have a clue either?)
and…
Just been sent a copy of this wonder report…
after just a quick scan though…
�To put the K�s ability into perspective the Honda S2000�s 2.0 litre engine the one that the Lotus people on the one make series aspired to, revs to 9000 rpm as a production engine. With a 75 mm stroke this achieves a piston speed of 4966 ft/min, with its longer stroke the K achieves this at 8500 rpm, something the standard K bottom end is perfectly capable of, with the sole modification of forged pistons.�
Total b0ll0cks, S2000 has a 84mm stroke (87mm bore = 1997cc) later version has an increased stoke to 90.7mm (=2157cc). These are rated at 240hp@8300 rpm and 153 lb-ft @ 7500 rpm (for the later ones 240hp at 7800 and 162 lb-ft @ 6500 rpm).
and nobody is using the F20C anyway, we are all using the K20A.
CBA to read the rest of it, apart from I wish that if he is going to use my name, at least learn to spell it SCUFFHAM has a �H� in it.
Simon,
Interested to hear who you are talking to at the flightshed (or is it east works people) as I know a lot of the engineers there and in particular one of the specialist engine engineers who has built some of the fastest inhouse engines ever.
Drop me an email on > [email protected] >
Come on Marky Mark… don’t keep this all to your self…
Not looked at this thread for a while. Rox, used to do some of the suspension tuning over there so know a lot of the people. Mate from Uni was responsible for the Bonneville record attempt cars, and some tweeky turbo K’s.
No response from Simon though.
The bottom line is you cant buy a 220bhp+ 1.8K series from anyone with say a (worthwhile) 24K mile warranty can you ?
You can buy a Honda or Audi etc…so no-one in the UK in the K tuning world is willing to risk their business on the reliability of the K series - if its so easy then why dont people just get on and do it…?
I thought Turbo Technics offered a warranty?
You don’t get a warranty with the Honda conversions do you, don’t know on the Audi conversion, but the PTP, Janspeed, racespeed kits all had/have 12 months don’t they??
Getting a warranty is easy, you just need to pay for it.
For the record my 190 upgrade Exige is on 36k miles and has another 18months of warranty left.
The bottom line is you cant buy a 220bhp+ 1.8K series from anyone with say a (worthwhile) 24K mile warranty can you ?
You can buy a Honda or Audi etc…so no-one in the UK in the K tuning world is willing to risk their business on the reliability of the K series - if its so easy then why dont people just get on and do it…?
Playing devils advocate for a minute.
I think the only person in the UK doing Audi conversions is Bernard and while I have no doubt it’s a superb conversion and Bernard is an honest, forthright chap, that’s not quite the same as a manufacturer’s warranty to bail you out if it goes bang in a big way. I assume that at the moment Bernard is agreeing each case in turn in terms of support for the conversion.
How many audi elises are there?
Craigy
Maidstone are offering warrenties on their conversions and engines if you buy them through them. I didn’t so that means the kit is warrentied but not the engine itself.
Randy,
I was about to add that Maidstone offer a 12 month warranty (after my previous post which was a qustion about that but didn’t come over as one).
To quote:-
Maidstones kit comes with a comprehensive 12 months unlimited mileage parts and labour warrenty on both the kit and the engine/box, this is extendable to 2 and 3 years.
Blink website says
12 month warranty on all the conversion components
3 month warranty on the Honda engine/gearbox unit
I’d guess the engine mounts and bits aren’t going to break but an engine might…
Oh god I just read all of this i should be changing my oils and fixing spongy brakes …
Its very simple, ANY 2.0 l engine producing 220hp is going to cost 10-15K by the time your finished. Take a BDX, Vauxhall, whatever - you need steel cranks, decent rods, pistons, cams, blah blah - it all cost the same - it just depends on what you use as a base … I mean NA engines need revs to get decent power and revs are what kills it
My sprint 16V A series mini engine was the same case, steel everything and 10-12K cost (for 165hp) ( reved to 9K by the way …) but god help you if you missed a shift etc - that was one cast iron grenade waiting and everytime it ran the pin was out I was competing against 1400 Metros and Nova’s - one Nova with 180+ from 1400 - and a rebulid every other sprint - so maybe every 10 miles …
Next issue gearbox, drivetrain to cope with all that new power … the PG1 etc is not going to last …
Nope for what most of us do, bit of road, some thrash on a track day ( no racing .) a Honda (or Audi if you like) conversion makes the only sense for 10K … and little hassle
I know of three audi conversions done by Bernard, including his own…
He is doing mine now…
If anything goes wrong it is down to his integrity, and he has tons of that…
It would be hard to provide a warranty over the conversion because at present the ‘customer’ sources the engine, and gearbox, from a vehicle dismantler (a ‘scrappy’), and you can’t tell much about an engine or a gearbox that has been removed from a car you can’t see, with a mileage you can’t find out…
None of the cars so far done have suffered engine problems, and the reputation of the audi unit is superb…
Fingers crossed !!
I too am a friend of Simon Erland, having met through Club Lotus. His enthusiasm drew me into following his advice to have built a reliable 200bhp K-series, pretty well exactly to the spec. in his last post (285 Hydraulic cams, head flowing 110, Omega pistons, Arrow rods, Jenvey bodies, Bernard Scouse airbox, remote stat …). I used all his contacts including Steve Smith/Vibration Free for the balancing, build & installation plus Dave Walker to set it up and now have a fabulously sweet engine which I rev just shy of 8,000rpm (peak power 7,550). For the record, it recorded 189.6bhp/7,550 and peak torque 139lbft/6,000 with over 130lbft from 4,250 to 7,250 rpm - a truly flat torque curve! Also, this was rolling roaded on possibly the hottest day of 2003, when Dave Walker had no aircon in his new dynocell. The ambient was therefore 36 degrees and recorded air intake temp (in airbox) was 67!!!. By Dave’s own estimate, true figures where therefore probably 5% up on those recorded giving perhaps 198bhp/146lbft? Anyway, figures aren’t really important as we’re all doing this for fun I believe and I have a wicked engine with a clear edge on 190’d Exiges on the track. Only problem is that no Exige drivers can believe an Elise is quicker than them, so don’t pull over on trackdays (suspension is tweaked too)! I can’t really comment on longevity as I’ve only done 2,000 miles since, but most of those on track with no problems and very cool mid 80 degree engine temp’s on some seriously hot days. I think the point I’d like to make is that Simon is an A1 enthusiast who has spent massive time for no finacial gain in helping those who wish to take his advice and contacts to build a great K. My view was that a K came in the car and makes a great “screamer” so in keeping with the rest of it but equally no-one can have too much power so good luck if you want to try something else. Must say, those conversions worry me a little from an installation point of view - isn’t the Honda the other way round to the K (exhausts to the rear) pushing the weight further rearwards to accommodate inlet gubbins? No idea about the Audi, but the only test I ever read on Blink’s Hondalise said it handles very amusingly because the suspension was so tired & slack. Anyway, I hope everyone has fun whatever they do and please remember, if the car wasn’t in your mirrors a lap ago - IT’S GOING FASTER THAN YOU SO DO PLEASE PULL OVER!
Martin