Post deleted by Admin5

Simon… is it me, or are your power/torque figures getting lower and lower?

I had a 200+ K, so I’m well aware of the work that goes into them. I’m also vaguely aware of how much work went into Steves engine.

I’m also aware that it’s the only n/a K thats made anything like the torque you claim in an Elise. Sure, there’s 220hp engines out there, but how many of them have a decent midrange and this claimed 160lb.ft ? I only know of one, and you correctly identified it as Steves. Even then, its been a struggle to get the 220bhp. Steve was stuck at 206 for a long while.

Bri

Nope, it’s a custom flywheel on my car.

Perhaps the weights Ford gave you included the VERY heavy stock manifold, alternator, power steering pump etc? No way on earth could it weigh above 120kg…

I only need another 10ftlbs and i’m there to

hehe… you’ve obviously not built it correctly

Simon, I really think it’s a bit closed minded the way you are carrying on like the Rover K is the best 4-cylinder engine ever made. Everyone here is happy to agree that the engine may have been technically advanced for it’s day and that, with carful part selection and build, many of the inherent flaws can be adressed. What you have after all that work though is a highly modified and expensive race engine which can only do a small number of miles between rebuilds. Yes, it can be reliable but only with very high standards of preperation, for example Barrie and Gavin take there engine apart after every race and they are only running 225bhp.

It’s crazy to compare a full race engine like this to an Audi or Honda which are bog standard production engines. It’s also crazy to compare them to an S2000 engine (which is not the engine used in the Elise conversions and not the most modern or advanced Honda engine) used in a one make Formula car. Formula cars have very different requirements like complete reliability and a target level of performance, not outright power.

If you want to compare like for like then take a Honda Elise and put it against a standard 111s, both production vvc engines. Or take your sooped up turbo K and compare it to Bernhards sooped up Audi. I’ll give you no prizes for quessing who will win those two shoot outs.

Another point that you are totally missing out is the driving characteristics of these engines. I couldn’t care less if a highly tuned K could lap faster than me or has more bhp. If I wanted outright performance I would buy a Radical. What I care about is how much fun I have out of my car and I think most people on here are the same. Come and drive my Honda car or an Audi (havn’t driven one myself yet but by all accounts they sound pretty bloody brilliant) and then maybe you will see why so many people are eager to see the back of the asthmatic little Rover with all it’s reliability issues.

Yep i know that, the bottom end is standard

Strange, I was chatting to Barrie Whight at Donington the other day. Was there to support his Dad, who I race with, as he was doing an FIA GT race. He was telling me that they have ~225bhp and that the engine comes out of the car after every race. He pointed out to me that their race car was fantastic but very very fragile in every department, engine and chassis.

I’ll be very suprised and pissed off if my Honda engine blows up after only 5K miles. With all those reports of bullet proof reliability it’s amazing that so many people can be wrong. Even more amazing that the opposite is true of the Rover engine… weird.

Maybe I’m wrong about the performance of the Honda as well. It felt like a good improvement over the VHPD but maybe that was just my inexperience with quick cars? Seems like all those Civic Type-R guys are being led up the garden path too because I keep hearing what a great engine they have.

So many miss informed people out there…

OK so tell me where I can buy and have fitted a 240bhp K series engine for sub �10K with a comprehensive 2 year 24K mile warranty for road and track use? if there is one I would have it fitted…but there isnt. Last year I rang around every K engine builder I could find - they wanted �5-10K to give me 200bhp ish with a warranty that expired when I left their workshop.

The product dosent exist…whereas a Honda, Audi, even TT supercharged K series does…many companies will build you a highly tuned K…but very few will put their money where their mouth is and back it up for any length of time…strange that…guess they would be out of business with warranty claims

cheers
bogie

This is obviously not a scientific evaluation, merely a personal observation.

I have driven 6 or 7 different Exiges with differing states of “tune” ie standard 177/standard190/standard 190 plus UCR gearbox/Emerald+verniers+Jenvies, plus Russ’s Honda powered Exige, along with Blink’s Honda Elise.

Yes, you have to change gear more often with the Honda 6 speed box, but these changes are quicker than with the PG1 Rover gearbox, even with a B & M quickhift fitted (I think that’s down to a better overall linkage).

Without doubt, the Honda cars “seem” faster, both in a straight line & when accelerating out of a corner. I have experienced this both as a driver, & as a passenger, when in either a VHPD or Honda powered car.

Unfortunately as yet, I’ve not had the pleasure of experiencing one of Bernard’s “babies” (Hint, hint!)

Steve
Thought you were doing better with the new cam ? Dave Andrews told me you had another 9 horses ?
Durability depends very much on how much you use the engine, and how much you rev it. track use will shorten any engines life enormously !!! Do you really think these Hondas are lasting 100’000 miles on the track !!!
!!!Honda Mugen were completely rebuilding thier BTCC engines every race, they were completely knackered and those engines were limited to only 8500rpm. I think the balancing help I gave them helped a lot , but if you rev any engine hard for sustained periods it will wear .Thats half the point of forced induction engines, lots of go without having to rev it, therefore they last better.
Simon

Last year’s engine made ~215bhp and with the cam timing set in a particular manner 160lbft, and all this was only possible with the addition of the unequal length trumpets. The way I ran it gave ~156-157lbft.

My new scholar evo2 block (just laguna liners, no block welding) and fully balanced tungsten inserted crank made the same mid range, better bottom end - >10lbft between 3000-4500rpm, but less top end. When I asked Steve at Vibration Free about the lack of top-end he wasn’t surprised and explained that the crank was made 2.5kg heavier so I’m not going to get the same top end - there is more work for the engine to do simply spinning. So it made 208bhp.

I tried a new cam grind and that gave torque everywhere and got me back to 215bhp and 159lbft.

There isn’t much left to try now, so to get real world 220bhp/160lbft figures isn’t easy at all.

Also your point seems to be that the K is a great design. But it clearly isn’t in reality - just in principle - given that most of the components need changing to build a powerful version.

The list is unmodifed parts left on my engine are:

Water pump,
Crank ladder,
Oil ladder,
Cam ladder,
VHPD flywheel (this has been balanced)

Hmmm…

And what’s all this about durability? The story you are telling is that the tuned K will outlast Honda’s etc… But the Honda’s being run in track cars including Elises are lasting 10s of thousands of miles, as do Audi’s and Duratecs. the other engines don’t need to be completely re-engineered to cope either!

Please stop refering to BTCC Mugen engines. They are not at all relevant to this discussion - we are talking how good the K series is and how easy it is to get 220bhp and that it will be bullet proof. Not how we can get a production block to make as much power as possible with the limitation of the F3 air restrictor.

Your poor case for the K keeps going off topic by trying to discuss too many claims that you are makign in one thread.

In the main it is cheaper to get better reliabiliy and 200bhp performance from a different brand of engine. Unless you can DIY things like I have done, but even then I expect mine will go pop before an Audi/Honda?Duratec providing the same power and given the same useage.

If it were possible to do it with the K then people who’s skill in life is not Sculpting would be doing this already. There was/is a big enough market for it. Judd have recently entered the market, but the prices they are charging are astronomic, and the rebuild intervals are VERY low.

No-one has done it successfully. I feel what Brian Drought and I did to my engine is the most reliable yet to be fitted in my car - it solves the liners issue and the crank counter balance issues. But its still not making the power and it uses one the best head ports Dave Andrews has done (proven by the results I get compared to others with similar specs of engine in the past). And its only been running for 4k miles, and is one of a kind so doens’t really give much bases to make across the board assumptions for reliability.

SteveB

The S2000 engine (F20C) is not the last time I looked iVTEC it’s only VTEC.

I’ll firstly state the obvious that I’m a Honda Elise owner. What you have failed to address so far is the characteristics of both engines. Having driven a 200hp Exige and a 200hp Honda Elise the difference in power delievery is night and day. The Exige seems to take forever to get going whereas the Honda has a much broader torque curve and pulls harder sooner. I can provide dyno charts on request for any disbelievers.

The Honda may well not be good for 100,000 miles of hard track use, but no way in this world will a K get anywhere close to it for reliability at similar power levels. Aside from the fact the engine is less stressed than a K at similar power outputs the Honda ECU is far more advanced than the K or the Emerald in terms of engine protection, this alone could save you from an expensive rebuild.

Ah but Ian… Were you not over taken by a lowly sport 160 at Zandvoort

I did look at the Sport 160 and it had a very loose nut behind the wheel

Mr Pesky.

Next time you are down this way let me know. Or are you going to SELOC at Bruntingthorpe at the end of the month ? You could maybe try mine or Matts monster there.

Bernard

haha, yes it’s true. Of course I blame the fact I was on Toyo’s and Mr Nutter was on 38’s. Couldn’t possibly be the driver

Bernard

Thanks for the offer. Won’t be at Brunty, I’m afraid, but I expect to be at Pembrey, Silverstone & Donington with the Mid Engined Race Cars, so I’ll catch up with you guys then

or an Audi (havn’t driven one myself yet but by all accounts they sound pretty bloody brilliant)

Chris - you can drive mine, just as soon as Bernard has finished it !!

(Form a queue !!!)

BTW Bernards is pretty low powered compared to Matt’s which is also a lot lighter, and also has the motorsport aeros…

Unfortunately as yet, I’ve not had the pleasure of experiencing one of Bernard’s “babies” (Hint, hint!)

OK - You too - the queue is getting longer !!