King Kg

Some interesting info on engine/gearbox weights here:

[image]http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~scuffham/Temp/Dsc01713.jpg[/image]

[image]http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~scuffham/Temp/Dsc01721.jpg[/image] [image]http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~scuffham/Temp/Dsc01717.jpg[/image]

So the Honda gearbox is 41.2kg’s and the Rover gearbox is a strangely identical 41.2kg’s. I was quite suprised as the Honda box is physically bigger, has a extra cog and is a damn sight stronger.

The Honda engine weighs in at 119.2Kg’s but a Rover engine, less gearbox, wasn’t available so we will have to wait to see the results from putting that on the scales although it will definately be more than 100Kg’s as a complete Rover engine/box was put on the scales and it topped the maximum reading of 140Kg’s.

These pics come from a post Simon did at S_E, where he is discussing with some guys that have converted already to Hondas, and that have measured the whole conversion to be 37-38 Kg heavier than before.

Now, I’m completely off the theme here, as I don’t have one of these conversions (and the argument is with them) but a few points:

-You need better scales than that, because the small surface (compared to the item being weighed) could induce large errors (sticktion)
-did the PG1 have an LSD? because an LSD is heavier, and is also a differentiating point in the marketing of the Honda
-were they both full of oil?
-and finally, somebody else needs to do the measurements anyway, somebody that is clearly neutral.

I agree that better scales would be ideal but this does give you a good idea. The pics are from Mr Scuffham who took them earlier in the week.

Where the f*ck can 38 Kg’s come from?? If the gearbox is clearly about the same weight then can you really see almost 40Kg’s in the engine. I don’t think so, especially considering the Honda is 120Kg so the Rover would have to weigh in at 80… don’t think so - we know the combined weight is more than 140Kg.

Don’t know, but could be more fluids for ex. (oil/coolant/GB oil), ancillaries, the very engine mounts, don’t know.

Wasn’t it mentioned somewhere that the K alone was < 80Kg?

Don’t know, but could be more fluids for ex. (oil/coolant/GB oil), ancillaries, the very engine mounts, don’t know.

Wasn’t it mentioned somewhere that the K alone was < 80Kg?

Geary (Eliseparts) weighed one at 96 kg with flywheel & clutch but not much else. This 71 kg that Simon E goes on about is garbage.

In fact while I’m on about it, the table he’s published in RaceCar engineering is somewhat biased too.

Ford Duratec 140 BHP and 1.16 BHP/kg
Honda S2000 237 BHP and 1.5 BHP/kg
Standard K series 120 bHP and 1.25 BHP/kg
2 litre K series 293 BHP and 3.9 BHP/kg

Hmmmm, anybody got any power curves showing the 293 BHP and nearly 200 ft lbs ?

Bernard

I am amazed at this to be honest - I can shift a k series block on my own with no problem, I can shift one fully dressed if I have to (box and ancilaries). I can just about pick up a k20 block but tried shifting a k20 + box + ancilaries the other day and nearly killed myself.


Think I am just getting old and decrepid.


It does explain why those honda converted elises that have been weighed have come out pretty similar to pre conversion though. I was a bit sceptical of those figures before but the evidence is mounting that the Honda is not a heavy as has been claimed and the k series is a lot more lardy that imaged.

71kgs for a k series was always just fantasy though.

It does explain why those honda converted elises that have been weighed have come out pretty similar to pre conversion though.

not from what I hear…

From the S_E bb:

Dodgy weighbridge data; lets see then.

Car weighed on weighbridge in Scotland 743kg’s which is about right
for an S1 99MY give or take a few kg’s. I also had the car corner
weighted in Scotland a few years ago and it was in the low 740’s.

Car weighed on scales at Sinclaires, 870kg’s including me. This
wasn’t right so checked with them and they had written the off side
rear down incorrectly so actual weight 850kg’s with me. I weigh
70kg’s that makes 780kg’s for my car post conversion. Just to check
though, I took the car to a local weighbridge and guess what 780kg’s
(I stepped on and off the weighbridge and it varied by 70kg’s so
reasonably accurate in my book) Therefore, 37kg’s heavier.

Komotec Honda S2 at the Ring posted his car was 816kg’s post
conversion, 778kg’s pre conversion so that’s 38kg’s heavier.

Ian Wilson said his was 775kg’s post conversion. He drives an S1 as
you know so best case it’s 25kg’s heavier as his car is unlikely to
be heavier than 750kg’s pre conversion and probably lighter.
However, given that his car is 5kg’s lighter than mine post
conversion, lets assume that it started off 5 kg’s lighter as well
which would make it 738kg’s; which makes it 37kg’s heavier post
conversion. Now that’s a big assumption to make but there’s a bit of
a pattern forming don’t you think?

Incidentally, unless my ex girlfriends have been bragging about me
on the Internet, I have no idea who King Dick is although will
hazard a guess at Uldis’ engine builder bloke. I also checked with
my neighbour; he doesn’t know how heavy my Elise is so I guess the
whole World is slightly exagerated.

Clearly the Honda engine isn’t the boat anchor your Regally endowed
friend suggests. I am, however, having a tough time believing the
conversion adds <20 kg’s to the overall weight of the car which you
assert. This would mean that my car would have started off weighing
at least 760kg’s, even late model S1’s didn’t weigh this much and I
already know it didn’t. Therefore, we can agree that straight away
the <20kg’s increase (for the conversion) is bollocks right? Now
this isn’t quite as bad as the Thundering Horses you keep referring
to but it’s still inaccurate.

Cheers
Kelvin.


— In [email protected], “Simon Scuffham”
<[email protected]…> wrote:

Kelvin

My reson for doing this is that it’s more than a principal
involved…

I have people like King Dick rabbiting on about how much of a ship
anchor the Honda is, and you telling the world it’s 37Kg’s more
(with
some dodgy weighbridge data) is not exactly helpfull…

Hence going to the trouble to actually weigh the engines etc. I
know that there is not that much in it…

I have to say I was somewhat supproed with the gearboxes, to the
point I did it 3 times… the Honda one is physically bigger too, I
guess they are used better design internally?

I can’t remeber what my K weight dressed, but that would not be much
help anyway as it was very much lighter than std.

by next week I will have the exact std engine weight foe the K as
fitted to an Elise, hopefully this will nail this subject closed!

— In [email protected], “Kelvin Hughes”
<[email protected]…> wrote:

It’s a lot of trouble to go to…although you are trying to prove a
point I guess which is fair enough. All I can say is that my car is
37kg’s heavier, the Komotec guy’s car is 38kg’s heavier and Ian’s
car was 30 something kg’s heavier. Therefore it seems reasonably
safe to assume that the WHOLE conversion as fitted adds at least
30kg’s. Some of the extra weight must be in the exhaust as the
silencer is pretty big compared to the old Janspeed plus I have a
cat fitted rather than a cat pipe so that’ll add something as well.

Cheers
Kelvin.

Seen figure from blink which seem to put it in the order of 10-15kgs heavier.

As that thread pointed out - most tunned K series are “CAT less” and tend to have small lightweight back boxes, post conversion most seem to end up with a CAT and a much bigger back box (current honda conversions should be able to walk an MOT without backhanders or modifications).

The box I took off my car was literally a quarter of the size of the one that is on now.

Hence my thought that the lower than expected (including the extra bits of lard that get applied in a conversion) end weights of the converted cars are not so outlandish.

In essence - k series is a big old lardy engine whoose time is long past

In essence - k series is a big old lardy engine whoose time is long past


Sometimes I feel myself that way about… myself

43 next month…

dear oh dear - surely its time you stopped messing around with cars and settled down to pipe and slipper time



Nah - seriously, hope I am still tuning, tracking and enjoying cars to the extent you do in 10 years time.

Nah - seriously, hope I am still tuning, tracking and enjoying cars to the extent you do in 10 years time.

That makes 2 of us, then

Oi Pesky, are you 33… again?

Or you mean, 133?