K Series to Rev to 8,000RPM All day Long !!!

“and is tuned to that natural frequency for that OE crankset”

so is it tuned to the natural frequency for the OE crankset its attached to?

  • Quite since all the K cranksets despite cranks which vary in weight by a kilo, share flywheels and clutches of the same weight, and the natural frequancy is very close, close enough for the damper to do an adequate job since the redlines are set below the natural frequency range, Obviously you have to do the reesearh, or have Rover’s to know that.

Spin the engine faster than 7300rpm and its not really up to the job

Lighten the flywheel significantly [ ie lose more than 3/4kg] and it will not work at all, though the frequency is moved higher.


So coming back to the original post - you need to know what you are doing if you are going to safely spin the engine to 8000rpm or faster - safely.

That requires some work , …

simon

So what are the natural frequencies?

  • Quite since all the K cranksets despite cranks which vary in weight by a kilo, share flywheels and clutches of the same weight, and the natural frequancy is very close, close enough for the damper to do an adequate job since the redlines are set below the natural frequency range, Obviously you have to do the reesearh, or have Rover’s to know that.

Spin the engine faster than 7300rpm and its not really up to the job

Lighten the flywheel significantly [ ie lose more than 3/4kg] and it will not work at all, though the frequency is moved higher.


So coming back to the original post - you need to know what you are doing if you are going to safely spin the engine to 8000rpm or faster - safely.

That requires some work , …

simon

So what are the natural frequencies?

Go on Johnboy, order the book, you know you want too, you’ll get all the pretty graphs too.

s

So any particular reason you feel unable to tell people what the frequencies are until the book is published? Whats the publication date of the book?

Johnboy,

Just hang the crank/crankset up and hit it with a polymer or plastic hammer, you will soon see from the ring tone that you get that the 1600/1400 crankset/flywheel combination has a natural frequency which is loads different to the 1800. The overall mass is a lot more than 1KG different and the elasticity of the crank is different due to more overlap between the bearings and thicker webs.

share flywheels and clutches of the same weight

Categorically the K series variants do not have clutches and flywheels of the same weight.

A sound sample on your PC of the ring and some simple editing software will give you the FR and you can compare the two.

Easy…

I’ve had an interesting chat with Steve at VF about this very subject recently, suffice to say that his views are a bit different to those mooted here… but you’ll have to wait for my book.

Dave

What’s the book to be called? Guide to European Pressure Equipment - was that one of yours?

“The overall mass is a lot more than 1KG different and the elasticity of the crank is different due to more overlap between the bearings and thicker webs.”

“Categorically the K series variants do not have clutches and flywheels of the same weight.”

Any particular reason why you don’t want to answer these fairly straight forward claims?

More body swerves.

I am not the only person to use that method to arrive at the resonant frequency, the laws of physics remain constant whether you are asessing a tuning fork or a crankset. The RF is in a constant relationship between mass and elasticity, stiffer items will resonate at a higher frequency and lighter items will resonate at a higher frequency.

Dampers/absorbers? lets be clear about their function, the elastomer type ‘damper’ absorbs energy on the excitation phase while the crank accepts torque loads and accelerates /accepts torsional loads and donates this back during the latent phase while the crank set is decellerating/ recovering from torsinal loading. You can call it a banana if you like. My wife still calls her Dyson a ‘hoover’ but there is no mistaking what the meaning is.

Despite me keeping to civil discussion you just cant help yourself can you, you are sliding towards the King_t epithet again at great speed with your snide and fatuous remarks.

I may well write about sculpting.

Dave

JEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSUUUUUUUUUUUSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!

Children, can we please calm it. Lets do something constructive.

TV dampers are specifically tuned to respond at particular frequencies. I thought the K one was set to about 3500rpm which was some namby pamby second order bullsh!t, and would never gives a moments issue to one of us. Gates and others regulrly send engineers over to our place to sit all day putting on different instrumented dampers and measuring sh!t. They dont do that just for fun. I’ve also found in the past that I can wear them out if I’m running some bizarre engine speed all day which is close to the RF so occasionally I’ve heard that people fit modified ones for test bed use. The main concern with the TV damper is to bring the centre of the crankshaft wibly point forward a bit so that it doesnt fatigue the crank in the wrong place. (Sorry I’m not a mech eng, I only work with them)

I’ve also been told that the std 1.8 dinner plate flywheel goes into a whirling mode over 7000rpm which is why it tears the rear crank web off. I was also told by the same chief engineer that he didn’t think I’d have a problem on my K as I was using a smaller flywheel. Why??? I dont know, but he was paid a shed load more than me.

So, what does that all mean, well, I wouldn’t use a std 1.8 flywheel, I would get it all balanced and I wouldn’t remove the TV damper. Thank you, good night.

Obviously trickier on he 2lt crank as it doesn’t exist yet.

Thanks Simon, I know its a pain in the @rse typing it all out but its only then that we get a clear picture.

Regarding the damper - I take back what I said about not changing it. I was given one of those Judd solid pullies by a little bird (the one that tells me alsorts of interesting stuff). I never used it. Now I see that perhaps I should’ve. Oh well, I hope my old car’s new owners never find out why they made them.

Thank you Simon for the very lucid explanation.

Let me tell you that it was not me who hit the cranks with a hammer, but someone well known to both of us. It is a useful and simple way to easily determine whether a crankset has a higher or lower RF. It is also an understandable way for those who do not wish to make the calculations to see whether a particular crankset has a higher or lower RF.

I think we all know how dangerous the loss of a pulley is, but Peters belt went west because he was fiddling with the alternator while the engine was running… As for ‘much trumpeted’ (a favourite phrse of yours), I’ve mentioned it once. God knows how many times you’ve mentioned your less powerful ones.

Now we know that the clutch and flywheel masses are not the same across the range and that the use of a single pulley is a production fudge.

In other words the dampers are tuned but but are capable of working over a range of frequency excitation. This is not to say that the damper is equally effective over that range , but that it will do an acceptable job,

seems to agree with this from my earlier post

A torsional absorber will work at any RPM, it may be less effective at certain speeds but it is still worth having as my post affirms.



However sensible reduction of the overall mass of the rotational parts of the engine and the moment of inertia can raise the RPM at which the RF occurs, a properly lightened and balanced flywheel can move this significantly up the RPM range and out of the way of any sensible RPM.

and this

Reduction of torsional vibrations by retaining or improving the absorber can also reduce the feedback into the system and further reduce the affects of RF.

Despite a large number of SS and VHPD Caterhams operating through and above the critical RPM suggested I have yet to see any with either a broken crank or a shed pulley.

I would also expect to bruising to the main bearings where the crankcase is resisting the cranks movement but so far no evidence of any serious issue has presented itself.

I currently have a couple of R500 cranks (poorly cvounterweighted) together with the current R500 flywheels and another after market steel crank which has better counterweighting and stiffer sections between web and bearings. These are at VF to assess how severe the secondary OOB forces are on both cranks.

I’m sure Judd’s engine wass very different from stock with respect to crank, flywheel and RF.

Can I assume that Uldis’s and Mark Bowles’s engines both have modified ‘dampers’ since they both rev to around 8000RPM?.


Dave.

I have re-read the section you mention (I was first introduced to the rattler a long time ago) and this is what it says…

“Answer: There are fluid type and stock type or elastomer dampers. Newest to the market is the Rattler� absorber. The first two units have been readily available to the automotive market for many years and in fact were the only types available. The fluid type and elastomer type devices are dampers and tend to reduce vibration by > using friction to dissipate energy> . The Rattler, an absorber, is a device that absorbs and controls vibration by using internal rollers that automatically offsets the twisting forces that cause vibration.”

It cleary says that the elastomer type reduces vibration by using friction to dissipate energy. This is incorrect, whereas a fluid type damper does dissipate energy by heat caused by friction (and is usually finned to aid cooling) an elastomer type asborber only dissipates a small amount of energy via heat and this is not by design but is a loss associated with its relatively low efficiency.

The majority of the energy absorbed is put back into the crankset during the latent non excitation phase, just as it is with the rattler. In this application the elastomer acts just like a spring, storing energy on extension (excitation of the crank) and releasing it when latent.

This is entirely consistent with the explanation given in my post earlier in this thread.

"Often, the vibration attenuating devices on the free end of an engine crankshaft are incorrectly referred to as “DAMPERS”. In most cases, they are ABSORBERS. (That’s not semantics. A damper dissipates energy, typically as heat. An absorber alternately stores and releases energy to counteract vibration).

The elastomeric (“metal-ring-on-rubber-spring”) devices used by the automotive industry are ABSORBERS which are tuned to counteract vibration at the frequency where the particular engine generates its worst torsional excitation."

Generically both devices smooth or dampen the uneven torque loadings on the crank which is why they are lazily called ‘dampers’ since this term adequately describes their function and precludes the need to distinguish between them. However their modes of operation are very different and the means by which they achieve their functions is distinct.

Dampers operate by only reducing the peak torque loading, whereas absorbers reduce the peak torque as well as ‘reducing’ the torque trough by returning energy to the system at this point in the cycle. The weight of the ring and its moment of inertia determines pretty much the rev range at which the ‘absorber’ operates. A damper will pretty much operate at any point in the rev range.

A ‘damper’ will soak up some of the torque peak energy (typically 4 or 5 times the average torque) and this will be shed as heat, an absorber will soak up some of the energy and return it to the crankset as the crank decellerates.

The elastomer type absorber is dual mass with the outer heavy ring attached to the pulley with a rubber/elastomer bond, as the crank accelerates the outer ring is left behind since it is attached elastically, as the crank decellerates the outer ring catches up and momentarily overtakes the crank returning most of its energy.

This is common with dual mass flywhels which can eliminate rollover noise at idle in the same way.

The rattler achieves this by leaving behind the steel rollers during the acceleration/excitation phase, these catch up on the latent or decelleration phase and return their energy in a similar way to an elastomer damper.

Add your name to the list of people incorrectly referring to absorbers as dampers.

dva’s efforts at timpony

Although percussive it’s hardly timpony, campanology would be a better analagy.

Dave

Can I assume that Uldis’s and Mark Bowles’s engines both have modified ‘dampers’ since they both rev to around 8000RPM?.

Mine is not a modified one, but a completely different, bespoke one.

So guys, a thing like this:
http://www.eliseparts.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=92&products_id=245
could have catastrophic results for the engine; or did I misinterpret what you�re saying?

How is it then that the standard engine VHPD engine which revs to 8000 is not in general damaged by retention of the standard damper?

You’d best go away and do some more reading Simon. I have a response to your anticipated response already waiting…

Dave

[George, Uldis, I’ll write a reply to dva’s post in a bit, can’t at the moment,

/standard King_K response when he has to go and get someone else to write the reply for him.