Whilst it is interesting about the weight infomation; it would also be interesting to find out the weight distributions after a conversion as this will make a noticable difference. I know that in Bernards Audi conversions although it adds more weight he has designed in that the engine sits lower and futher forward distributing the weight in the right direction !!
Does the Honda conversion do this as well ?
Sorry Just Jacked my own thread !!!
Whilst it is interesting about the weight infomation; it would also be interesting to find out the weight distributions after a conversion as this will make a noticable difference. I know that in Bernards Audi conversions although it adds more weight he has designed in that the engine sits lower and futher forward distributing the weight in the right direction !!
Does the Honda conversion do this as well ?
Sorry Just Jacked my own thread !!!
On my Audi engined car the weight was shifted 2% rearward, hardly a big deal.
Bernard
O.k maybe this info is irrelevant to the orginal question but it is a question that has been asked many times and a lot of misleading info provided.
King K is right in saying there is a ‘good’ 40 kg difference in the weight of a k series engined cars versus the same, Honda converted car.
My car is exactly 60kg heavier than before it had a Honda + S/C conversion, using the same scales.
Excellent, you’re the first Honda customer to have checked precisely which was the weight difference (or at least posted honestly about it).
At least (and fair play to Bernard) Audi customers have always said: yeah, it’s heavier, but it’s fooking powerful!
I’ve compensated in my Honda bloat-mobile by losing 40kg in bodyweight - just working on trying to retain consciousness long enough to complete a couple of laps now that I only weight 7st
I hope it helps:
My VVC engine with alternator but no inlet and exhaust manifolds weighs 95 kg on my scales. On the same scales, my VHPD weight is 71kg (but no alternator on it).
Both with the clutch attached.George
Is this with all the TB’s and exhaust manifold attached?
If you take into account the 5.5 Kg alternator it would mean that there is a huge variation between K’s alone.
VHPD would be 21.5 Kg lighter than a VVC.What about comparing a VHPD then agaist a VVC or std 120 BHp K?
It would mean a great deal more weight to take into consideration, depending on which engine you start from, if you start with a heavier K then heavier Honda wouldn’t really feel that different.
(but if you start from a lighter K then…)
There is a masive difference accross the k series range - the cast inlet manifold on the VVC is quite a lump compared to the plastic one on the std K series, lots of k series on single plenums run VVC style cast manifolds.
Its a looong time ago but I remember my EBD stainless manifold being a fair bit heavier than the mild steel orignal etc.
Ultimately the weight of the engine is interesting but its all a bit acedemic - its the weight/balance of the car that matters, the change is also academic, you are no longer driving the old car.
There are plenty of posts over on Seloc about weights, before after and also an old one by scuffers with a k20 on a set of scales. Spend ten mins with the search function but ultimately its not terribly useful.
When I last had mine cornerweighted a couple of months ago it came out at 780kgs (full to the brim tank of fuel, all glass in, roof on, big heavy disks, heavy victories and a silencer the size of an oil tanker).
So thats 240-250bhp and 780kgs.
Also its were the weight is that matters - honda tends to throw the weight slightly more towards the COG, but in my install I currently have an issue with the exhaust weight which needs resolving.
Also its a big issue as to which honda install you are talking about, just like with the k-series. K24s are staring to get used, cars like mine running light altenator and pully kits and lighter induction systems, some running eaton chargers, some rotex, some intercooled, some not.
The weight of an engine is ultimately a bit of a red herring as they tend to need to be attached to a car before they actually go anywhere but the question also boils down to “Would you mind and extra 20-30kgs for lots more power, better gearing and better reliability” and for a lot of lotus elise varient owners the answer appears to be “yes”. Those massively worried about the weight can just pop down to clockwisemotion and spend a few quid on some lightweight bits.
O.k maybe this info is irrelevant to the orginal question but it is a question that has been asked many times and a lot of misleading info provided.
King K is right in saying there is a ‘good’ 40 kg difference in the weight of a k series engined cars versus the same, Honda converted car.
My car is exactly 60kg heavier than before it had a Honda + S/C conversion, using the same scales.
Excellent, you’re the first Honda customer to have checked precisely which was the weight difference (or at least posted honestly about it).
At least (and fair play to Bernard) Audi customers have always said: yeah, it’s heavier, but it’s fooking powerful!
I’ve compensated in my Honda bloat-mobile by losing 40kg in bodyweight - just working on trying to retain consciousness long enough to complete a couple of laps now that I only weight 7st
Sadly I have the opposite problem - every KG I save on the engine seems to come back as 2 KGs on my middle
I hope it helps:
My VVC engine with alternator but no inlet and exhaust manifolds weighs 95 kg on my scales. On the same scales, my VHPD weight is 71kg (but no alternator on it).
Both with the clutch attached.George
Is this with all the TB’s and exhaust manifold attached?
No, that�s without the throttle bodies, exhaust manifold, alternator and its mount, no spark plugs and leads, no water hoses and thermostat.
Only with the clutch and that small engine mount part attached to the sump.
Now spend some money tuning a k…
Simon
I presume that you mean tuning it only with the parts which you recommend/supply? Would you supply these items for “self assembly”, or would you insist on building the engine yourself to ensure it was done to your exacting standards?
For background, I’m thinking about an engine with 260 to 280 bhp for use on the road (10K miles per annum), plus 10 to 15 trackdays per annum, so an indication of costs would also be useful.(Do I start with a boggo 1.8 K series from an Elise, or is a VHPD preferable for the intended purpose?)
TIA
As far as all my work and parts - don’t know what I am going to do with it all now. The intention was to give it all freely to all those working with Ks to benefit the engine and for the “pros” to make profits from , but that’s obviously not going to happen now…
simon
No publisher? There are plenty of places on the web that will do single copy at a time (www.lulu.com) with decent quality/colour/bindings etc at a price were the book can sell and the author can still make a couple of quid per copy.
and lets remember an additional 30kg weight penalty in BTCC racing is on average enough to slow the same car 1 sec per lap on the BTCC circuit, thats in a much heavier car than an elise, and when the weight can be put in the least disadvantageous place. With a honda conversion that weight is always high over the back wheels, in a lighter car and almost twice the penalty enen for just a na honda, so there is no doubt that is going to hurt your times, not withstanding setup, driver ability etc etc.
simon
That sounds too much to me. From practical experience and consensus among the grid, in Formula Ford 1600 10kg is worth approx 0.1s around Silverstone National (400kg+driver and approx 120bhp). Obviously it varies depending on circuit, car mass and engine power but you’d expect Formula Ford to be sensitive to mass change. 1s for 30kg definitely seems on the high side for a Touring Car. In LapSim simulation runs the Elise at Donington International gains 0.15s in a NA Honda Elise for every 10kg added at the CofG.
With the greatest respect to all involved, of course you would take an identically spec’ed, equally reliable but lighter version of any engine if it is available but the first question to ask yourself is how many high powered cars are already existence and you have to favour the Honda or Audi at present. The next question is does the additional weight counterbalance the superior performance and, referring to TunerGP data, you’d again have to take the power of Honda or Audi.
Thats not to say things can’t change and developments won’t materialise (and good on the K-Series tuners and builders for continued work) but if you want the quickest proven package available then at this point in time my money isn’t on the K. This doesn’t detract from the fine work being done elesewhere, but the ‘safe’ money is on the conversions. Those wishing to speculate can put there money on KV6’s, Super K’s, Alfa V6’s or any number of alternatives. There’s nothing wrong with speculation, but it is a very different proposition to fact.
There will never be truly equal comparison - the Tuner GP competition with the same driver is a good baseline but overall a better indication is by a cross-section of well funded development on all variations competing over a period of time. Hopefully this will occur in the LOT series, for which I wish everyone the best of luck!
If you have a PG1 box knocking around would be interested in that weight also ??
The gearbox (according to my scales) weighs 39.2 kg.
[image]http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/GeorgeLotus/DSC08173.jpg[/image]
By the way, it�s a cr and available for sale.
Simon,
When this VHPD I bought blows I will need you, as I decided to stick with the k-series.
I was looking to install a Renault V6, which can easily reach over 320 BHP N/A, torque of a bus and six speed gearbox, but the extra weight put me off. The Elise should be faster with a nice 265 BHP K-Series around the track.
Mean the cranks, pistons, valves, cam, water pumps, oil pumps, liners, head casting, TB systems, flywheels, etc etc etc.
Book has a publisher, thankyou very much.
simon
Not sure what are you saying Simon, do you mean that you are not going ahead with these parts or that you have sold the designs on to a manufacturer ?
Bernard
On your first sentance we are totally agreed. As to what is available, no there’s no shop selling them to all who might trot up, but do the engines exist? yes, it’s just as far as mine are concerned, I’m not advertising the graphs, - For perhaps the same reason, amongst many, that Cosworth/Williams, Renault or even Ferrari don’t publish their F1 engine’s graphs, I was going to say ahead of a season, but at any time really.
simon
I think the big thing is that a racing engine supplier signs up to performance and upgrades, variability, degradation and failure rate clauses in their contract with the team or (in the case of one make formulae) the series. It is not in the interest of either a team or an engine builder to disclose details in case another team gets an advantage, e.g. by either focusing more money on the engine program to improve peak power or by distorting the power curve to sacrifice peak power for a wider torque spread.
I think it’s worth noting that engine suppliers very rarely publicly criticise other suppliers designs, build procedures, materials etc, even if they absolutely loathe each other (like Honda and Toyota). Ultimately it’s always the engines in the field that count.
[quoteI couldn’t agree more, the difference is that Toyota might well leap with joy every time a honda breaks, but I am trying to restore the Ks reputation and get people to see it for the engine that it is. Other tuners are using the same engine - the K series and to my mind damaging it’s reputation with really shoddy build practice, the situation is completely different to the situation between F1 teams.
simon [/quote]
I don’t think it is different Simon. You have a reputation that you feel required to protect and F1 engine suppliers have their own reputation to protect. I can guarantee that there are far more people who feel aggrieved about failings within their car/engine package then you do about the K.
![http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/GeorgeLotus/DSC08173.jpg[/image]](http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/GeorgeLotus/DSC08173.jpg%5B/image%5D){kind=link}