I fought the law.. and won !

General General Lotus Talk
1

So my big day in court arrived today…

Charge: Failing to give evidence

Rewind back to November 2006, I received an NIP… the Range Rover was caught on camera doing 40mph in a 30mph in Wolverhampton.

I requested evidence from the scamera “team”, who then sent me two pictures of the back of the Range Rover, the people within couldn’t be made out.

I sent back a letter giving a list of the three people in the car who shared the journey and that none of us were able to say, for sure, who was driving at the time of the offence and that as far as I was aware I had exercised due diligence in providing evidence as is my duty.

I received a hearing date which then kept being moved for one reason or another until today.

Then I find out that the penalty for failing to give evidence is 6 points, starting on the date of my hearing. Great.

Fast forward to today… Bit of a pain in the arse getting up at 6am to schlep across to Wolverhampton for a 10am. M6 traffic on a Monday is a biatch.

Met up with my barrister who took a few more details.

He then went into the court room prior to the hearing to layout what he was going to say… essentially that I’m a good lad, zero points (ie. not trying to avoid a ban…) my witnesses in the car also have zero points (ie. not trying to avoid a ban either). One of the witness in the car is an Intelligence Analyst for H.M.P Grendon, so an upstanding character… and that if I HAD put myself forward as the driver, not knowing for sure who was driving then I would be “recklessly giving false evidence”.

Anyway, barrister comes out and we wait to be called into the court… 20 minutes pass and we’re called in. I stand up, say my name and address and the clerk of the court tells me that the prosecution have no evidence and the case is dropped and I can go.

I’m a free man with an unblemished licence. 8)

And the Crown Prosecution is several �thousand pounds worse off, as I get to claim most legal costs, travel costs and my witnesses their travel costs and loss of earnings.

2

why were you doing 40mph in a 30 anyway ?

3

Who said I was doing 40 in a 30 ?

4

Thanks for letting us know Mr A, 6 points would have been outrageous given the circumstances though�

David

PS. PH story http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/speed/default.asp?storyId=16835

5

“the Range Rover was caught on camera doing 40mph in a 30mph”

And to say you did not know who was driving is silly.
which is a good thing people now get 6 points.

6

You are a lucky boy. I notice you don’t say you’re the owner/hirer of the car, but either way if the cars is in your keep/responsibility then if you don’t identify the driver you cop the fine. Which is fair enough IMHO.

You or your passengers having no previous, or even having a job does not constitute being a upstanding character FFS.

Can I assume it was a magistrates court? Clearly none present were as smart as your Barrister, or they may just have referred the case to a higher court.

Lucky boy.

PS can I use your barrister if I may be so unfortunate?

Rant over

7

excuse me MrD06 but innocent until PROVEN guilty… why implicate yourself?

8

You are a lucky boy. I notice you don’t say you’re the owner/hirer of the car, but either way if the cars is in your keep/responsibility then if you don’t identify the driver you cop the fine.

There’s a lot of misunderstanding/ignorance in this thread.

As the owner of the vehicle (as I am) it is my obligation under the RTA 172 to exercise due diligence to identify the driver of the vehicle at the time. However, even though I was diligent, I was unable to identify who was driving.

You or your passengers having no previous, or even having a job does not constitute being a upstanding character FFS.

I didn’t say that having no previous constituted being an upstanding character. However, it is a fact that if you have points on your licence already the courts will think you’re trying not to go over 12 points. These people are known to lawyers/courts as “totters”.

What witnesses do for a living can sway opinion.

I don’t make the rules.

9

So the law “one”

I guess you had two then

Whats the story on the 6 points if a company vehicle is caught and you dont own up … do they give all Directors 6 points or what ?

10

So the law “one”

D’OH ! Corrected.

The director/company owner must show due diligence to provide information on who was driving at the time. That is the limit of their obligation.

If no person can be named then nobody can be prosecuted.

IMPORTANT: Naming someone if you’re unsure who was driving is illegal also, “recklessly giving false information”. So taking points when you don’t know who was driving is an offence.

11

actually, there’s no law that says you have to keep a record of who was driving… various laws to cover having correct insurance/tax/MOT etc… but not necessary to keep a log of who was behind the wheel, especially not when multiple people in one vehicle who change driving intra-trip

the law is an ass and should be taken advantage of at every possible opportunity, much like you have done here.

well done sir!

12

This thread should go straight to the “Muppet Show”.

It’s not clever, & it’s not big imho. The full facts/details will never appear here, or on any internet forum for that matter, so further discussion is a complete waste of time.

13

My last word on this then…

As the owner of the vehicle (as I am) it is my obligation under the RTA 172 to exercise due diligence to identify the driver of the vehicle at the time. However, even though I was diligent, I was unable to identify who was driving.

“Igorance is not a defense”

Wasn’t it Man Utd that copped a very large fine after fergies car was caught on camera & the club chose not to disclose the driver?

You have been fortunate to have a knowledgable barrister in a courtroom of idiots.

Case closed

14

Plenty of people seem to have a holier than thou attitude to speeding on this site. So I guess plenty of people on this forum have never bothered with top 5/6th gear as they never, ever in any circumstances go above 70mph (I guess these folks will argue they only ever do it on the track too).

Speeding in the eyes of the law is black and white, but speeding in the eyes of sensible experienced drivers is common sense.

Which is more dangerous, 75mph in an Exige on the motorway, or 70mph in an Austin Allegro.

Top marks to Mr Admin for an informative thread, and for sticking it to the man!!!

15

Yes, well done Mr Admin ! This relentless prosecution of “Minor” infringements just to collect money is getting out of hand.

Before some of you get on your high horse and say speeding is speeding there is a hierachy like everything else. The Idiot in a unfamiliar Porsche Turbo doing 172 is off course at the top and lesser infringements like doing 10 mph over in good visibility with a well maintained car at a quite time are at the bottom.

We need to concentrate our efforts on the “hard core” idiots out there (which there are many) and get them off the road.

My 20 worth !

Ex77

16

FFS!

This is not a debate about the rights or wrongs of speeding, that is a seperate matter completely.

The holier than thou comments are not helpful, nor true.

The fooking point is that if you do get caught, hold your hand up, take it on the chin, & move on - I’ve had the misfortune to have to do that on numerous occasions over the years. 40mph in a 30mph is not “marginal”, even though it may well have been safe (but it may not have been, either).

It’s cases like this, & the smart arsed lawyers that lead to even more draconian measures being taken against motorists, & we’ll all suffer as a result.

We should be campaining for more sensible speed limits, in the areas where they are needed for purely safety reasons, not creating an even worse atomosphere for the leglislators to do their worst.

17

Pesky,

Absolutely spot on sir

Entirely my point (I’ve been caught too & owned up), only much better explained

18

Tim

I nominate you as my fellow Joint Chairman of the Grumpy Old Farts Club (rotund faction)

19

Pesky I disagree entirely. It must be a personality thing - some people readily bend over and ‘play ball’ with the authorities, own up, take it on the chin, fine and points and all, despite the system currently in place not satisfying the ‘innocent until proven guilty’ foundation of our legal system.

Other people refuse to implicate themselves so readily and, rightfully, request that the prosecution prove the case against them.

20

The holier than thou comments are not helpful

Are you referring to yourself ?

The fooking point is that if you do get caught, hold your hand up

So you’re saying you’ve never exceeded the speed limit on UK roads ? By your reasoning, if you have, then you should have handed yourself over to the police at your earliest opportunity. Or was it that because you weren’t caught by a camera then you were OK to get away with it ?