Just thinking what would be the next step to get more power from my Uk spec honda engine which has a Jackson racing supercharger its running 280bhp. Will be getting full race exhaust system soon, been waiting for 3months!!!
Can i get different size pulley for the supercharger?
Charge cooling it will it add much bhp? also if i charged cooled her would i have to re-map ecu?
Any advice would be helpful thankyou
Why???
Learn to be faster around the corners
DaveP keeps hammering that home to me, whenever I’m out on track with him. Even though I’ve got 50bhp more than he has, he’s still quicker
Why???
Learn to be faster around the corners
DaveP keeps hammering that home to me, whenever I’m out on track with him. Even though I’ve got 50bhp more than he has, he’s still quicker
It’s that secret supercharger I’ve got hidden away matey
It’s that secret supercharger I’ve got hidden away matey
Another CNM
I know what your saying Pesky but its not really just for track, if i can get a few more g’es g’es i would like to.
Its probably that i’m use to my 650bhp GTR even tho i only use it on the road its very very street useable, ok due to its 4wd it makes things easier, but i go to quite a few car shows early on a sunday morning and would like a bit more power on the motorway.
Now i’m not saying i want it as fast as my Skyline but another 50bhp would be perfect.
Just would like to know what my options are.
Put a decent charger on then intead of that glorified hairdryer
change the charger for a turbo. You already have the 8psi pulley on which i was told was about the limit on that charger for various reasons which i cant remember.
Also I would watch upping the boost too much on standard internals. Evosal can show you lots of the resultant debris from running big power on a stock honda.
Cheers Chris, at least i know now cant put different pulley on.
Does anyone know, just adding a charge cooler to it, it will add any more bhp to my setup i already have?
No it wont give you anymore top end power. However what it will do is mean your top end power will be available to you for a much longer period.
As your intake charge gets hotter and therefore less dense your engine will make less power. The charge cooler helps to keep the charge air cool and therefore more dense so you will get closer to your maximum power for a longer period.
Now intake charge temps are a big deal and I don’t think too many of the honda conversion people give it the respect it deserves. Now I don’t want to start a war here, but I have seen several honda conversions where the Air temp sender for the ECU is before the super charger. Now the ECU looks at the air temp sender and retards or advances the ignition dependant on that temperature.
For example on my audi the air temp sender in the intake manifold, just before the air gets to the engine, so it is measureing the REAL temperature of the air before it enters the engine.
Having the air temp sender before the supercharger is completly useless as the ECU is getting the wrong information. Now all I can think is the guys that map the SC hondas must put a very conservative ignition map in, or they guess, or they melt stuff.
The Emerald on my Audi knows the REAL air temp and it retards the ignition when it goes over 45 degrees (as do most manufacturers on forced induction engines).
As I said i don’t want to start a war but what are peoples views on this???
No it wont give you anymore top end power. However what it will do is mean your top end power will be available to you for a much longer period.
As your intake charge gets hotter and therefore less dense your engine will make less power. The charge cooler helps to keep the charge air cool and therefore more dense so you will get closer to your maximum power for a longer period.
Now intake charge temps are a big deal and I don’t think too many of the honda conversion people give it the respect it deserves. Now I don’t want to start a war here, but I have seen several honda conversions where the Air temp sender for the ECU is before the super charger. Now the ECU looks at the air temp sender and retards or advances the ignition dependant on that temperature.
For example on my audi the air temp sender in the intake manifold, just before the air gets to the engine, so it is measureing the REAL temperature of the air before it enters the engine.
Having the air temp sender before the supercharger is completly useless as the ECU is getting the wrong information. Now all I can think is the guys that map the SC hondas must put a very conservative ignition map in, or they guess, or they melt stuff.
The Emerald on my Audi knows the REAL air temp and it retards the ignition when it goes over 45 degrees (as do most manufacturers on forced induction engines).
As I said i don’t want to start a war but what are peoples views on this???
I agree. Putting the air temp sensor before a charger is not optimal for tuning.
Im thinking that this choice is due to the jackson charger. That is, it comes ready and they just leave it as is.
Ideally you would want the temp sensor /AFM after the supercharger or the turbo so you get actual temp and mass values and the ECU can optimize fuel and ignition based on these real values rather then on guesestimates which in a race can vary considerably.
Sean you are spot on !
Ive been looking at charge coolers due to the high ambients down in Aus and for me its become a no brainer.
The maps must be conservative as standard as the air will get much hotter and less dense as the charger gets hotter.
So your 280 HP or whatever is not going to stay that way as the ECU ( hopefully ) backs off advance as the temps rise. If not you do have detination problems.
The charge cooler is going to keep a more constant intake temperature which means you can run less conservative to start with and keep it that way.
So no it wont add HP but it will give the “mapper” more freedom …
This is all very interesting people, if that is the case its very stupid having the air temp sensor before the supercharger.
So charge cooling for me is the next step along with my exhaust.
Does anyone know if its fairly straight forward job, to move the air temp sensor after the supercharger? can it be done?..not really a mechanic, will get garage to do it, if it can be done.
Thanks again for the input
I have always wondered…
WHY do the Toyota SC cars have a HUGE charge cooler with HUGE cold air plumbing, wheras the Honda SC seems to just ‘bolt on’ with none of this!
I am sure it is not just making the rear view mirror usable on the Honda!
Today (like most days actually) I learned something new! I have just been speaking with Scuffers about a number of racing type things and we got onto the subject of charge air temperatures etc.
Simon explained why he leaves the air temp sender where it is and how he deals with rising charge air temps and how he accurately maps for them.
My mistake was thinking that the Eaton type charger works in the same way as a Turbo, which I now know they don�t. Yes, they both compress air and force it into the engine, but in different ways.
Now as the super charger compresses the air and forces it into the engine, yes the temperature of it rises and as such the air expands. Now as the air expands, as it can�t go anywhere the pressure in the intake manifold rises. Simon looks at the pressure in the manifold (via the map sensor) and adjusts the ignition and fuelling based on this map pressure figure. Simon also mentioned that the stock Honda air temp sensor isn�t particularly fast at responding to temp changes as it doesn�t need to be in an NA setup as designed, so wouldn�t be a reliable indicator of the air temp in the inlet manifold, where the temp can change quite dramatically in a very short space of time.
With a turbo the pressure can rise for a number of reasons and it doesn�t rise in a linear way with revs like a super charger does, hence why when mapping a turbo car, you need to see the real inlet temp and you also monitor the boost pressure in the same place via a map sensor.
I have always wondered…
WHY do the Toyota SC cars have a HUGE charge cooler with HUGE cold air plumbing, wheras the Honda SC seems to just ‘bolt on’ with none of this!
I am sure it is not just making the rear view mirror usable on the Honda!
Cooling the charge air is always going to be a good thing to do especially as the boost pressure you run goes up. Hoewever on lower powered cars it isn’t a total neccesaty IMO, plus I am pretty sure the Super cahrged Elise doesn’t run a cooler as it is running at a lower pressure, so cooling isn’t as important
Thanks for the update Sean (& Scuffers) - top geezers!
Ah that makes more sense to me now as well, afaik the reason they put the cc on the Exige was more for design of the inlet manfolds and upgradeability for the cup car etc rather than anything else, as it is not very efficient, the only reason why my charge cooler started life so big (a good thing) is that pro alloy used that size design for a lot of other applications so they only had to redesign the end tanks. I am quite glad of this because it gives me a lot of headroom for boost increases etc.
Hmm so the K20 still uses a MAP sensor then? For some reason I thought Honda had switched to MAFs.
With a MAP sensor it makes sense that it can be tuned based on pressure.
Why???
Learn to be faster around the corners
DaveP keeps hammering that home to me, whenever I’m out on track with him. Even though I’ve got 50bhp more than he has, he’s still quicker
I think MrPesky has a point there. But I have enjoyed passing 50-100hp stronger cars on my few trackdays this summer, and I’m just about getting to know my fully std. Koni+K-series 178hp S1 Its a really excellent car and when those A039 warm up you can just push push push and the car responds to your every demand.
Having enjoyed many of your inboard video’s I have also found some weird lines beeing used What I have noticed a lot is too early entry into a corner. Something I notice “professional” people do as well a lot in my line off work. Especially when the corner is followed quickly by another corner in the other direction. The Exige is at its best turning in a bit later, followed by a later apex. This way you have a nicer line trough the next corner and can go on the throttle much earlier. This is more quick and smooth, try it, its fun