hi, looking into engine mounts…and the height of the engine. obviously the lower the better but because the engine is quite tall this will be tricky. The obvious solution is a dry sump, this will lower the height of the engine, unfortunatly i cant afford such a mod so am looking at other alternatives…ie this one…
beacause the crank on a k20 sits well inside the block, the sump, aswell as being baffeled could be shortened by an inch or so. this will allow the engine to be as low as possible in the chassis without spending fortunes…now has anyone done this mod before? or am i gonna be a test pilot? lol.
I would be very careful before you start making the sump shallower. Honda didn’t design the sump the way it is for no reason!!
If you make the sump shallower, you will have to modify the oil pick up pipe, plus if you then fill the engine with the recomended amount of oil, it will be sitting a lot closer to, if not touching the crank, both of which are not good things at all.
Sometimes re-inventing the wheel is not a good thing. Randy’s and loads of other cars in last years LOT series handled perfectly well with a standard sump fitted.
From experience of doing my own DIY Honda ( with a lot of help from a number of people ) I can tell you that this is one mod you dont want to do.
As Sean sayes the sump is that way for a reason and if you place the engine in the right place the sump is just fine as it is.
Anyhow - good luck
ok thanks, ill still look into it… ive done it twice on a 2.0l zetec.
lots of people have done similar mods to various engines (sumps) to achieve a lower centre of gravity.
honda designed an engine to fit into a production car. its also as far as im aware always been fitted on or just behind the front wheels…ie under the bonnet. generally these are large areas where space is not at such a premium, unlike a mid mounted engined car.
its not a wheel its just a sump.
the pick up pipe is a no brainer really in comparison to the rest of the project.
the amount of oil being used would be less but also not relevat as the internal capacity is less.
once the sump is shortend the carnk will sit closer to it but once in place it cant move! its not like it swinging in the breeze! think how close valves come to hitting a piston…but unless there is a mechanical fault they never do.
also i agree the handling of the car may be good with the normal genearally assumed position of the engine, however if it not been tried then how can we know if its not going to be a future benifit?
also some folk who have a race car fit dry sump kits and they inturn sit the engine as low as possible… they would not do this if there was not an advantage to be gained!
i hope i manage to do it and that there is a positive result on handling (lower centre of gravity)
ill just ask anyone with more positive thoughts on this to maybe stick any ideas in etc… also any further hinderences i may have over looked…thanks a
to lower the engine you will have to cut out part of the rear subframe becuase the shafts will foul on the bottom side. And Im not sure if they will foul on the front side as well but this depends on your mountings. Maybe you could slightly tilt the engine?
thanks sin. already know about subframe and tilt etc. thanks
the amount of oil being used would be less but also not relevat as the internal capacity is less.
This is the most relevant thing of all!!! Lets say the standard engine holds 5 litres of oil. When it is running there will be a given amount in the engine itself doing the rounds before returning to the sump, lets say this is two or three litres (i don’t know for sure) threrfore leaving a couple of litres still in the sump to deal with oil still covering the pickup pipe, especially when you go round corners.
Now we all know the honda has an issue with oil surging into the cam chain housing, so with your reduced capacity of oil sitting in the sump, these problems are going to be increased in your situation. Now I am sure you are going to baffle your sump, but baffles are only good to apoint and I know from experiance that you only need that pickup pipe to be sucking air for a second or two to lunch the engine.
You can’t compare a wet sump to a dry sump oiling system, the later is far superior in every whay, but also loads of hasstle with all the extra pipework and tank and stuff.
I don’t think anyone is putting a downer on your idea, I love people modding stuff and doing different things, just trying to give you my opinion, nothing more.
This is the most relevant thing of all!!! Lets say the standard engine holds 5 litres of oil. When it is running there will be a given amount in the engine itself doing the rounds before returning to the sump, lets say this is two or three litres (i don’t know for sure) threrfore leaving a couple of litres still in the sump to deal with oil still covering the pickup pipe, especially when you go round corners.
not meaning to be forcefull in my explination but i dont think u nuderstand the process…
the amount of oil is not relevant! instead think of it as oil to capacity ratio. as long as the oil covers the pick up pipe by a percentage (not amount) then it will be fine…ie a 5 litre area will work the same as a three litre area just as long as the pick up pipe is submerged by the same percentage…if i could draw a picture i would. lol
just thought… if u had a 5 litre sump and only filled it to three litres…yes you would have a prob because the pick up pipe would catch air…however as ive tried to explain, if you have a 3 liter and fill it with three all is fine…on top i can lower the pick up pipe.
…
not meaning to be forcefull in my explination but > i dont think u nuderstand the process…
oh boy, I think you need to do a search on Sean’s posts before offering up a comment like that
unless your pick up is in a dedicated (lower) swirl pot your idea is risky. The pot would need to hold enough for the longest high speed corner you might enjoy. But since the pot wld need to be lower then you are back to square one
Will the smaller quantity of oil have any adverse effect as mechanically you will be working it harder and I assume it means it will also run a lot hotter.
I can see this ending in tears.
Mate, I’m not trying to tell you what to do here, just trying to keep your rods inside your block. I totally understand the process.
In a 5 litre sump, the pickup pipe wont sit further from the bottom of the sump, it will sit the optimum amount away from the bottom and will be covered by 5 litres of oil. In a 3 litre sump again I am sure you will have the pickup pipe the same optimum amout away from the bottom, but it will only be covered by three litres of oil. Now tell me how the lesser amount isn’t relevant!!!
Now for example if the oil pump and galaries and bearings and the head take say two litres of oil when the engine is running (as it is circulating round), in a 5 litre sump we still have our pickup pipe submerged in three litres of oil. In a three litre sump it will only be submerged in 1 litre of oil.
Now lets put a bit of hard cornering into the scenario and I know which sump I would rather have bolted to the bottom of my engine.
Yes as Steve says the less oil, the less heat it can take out of the engine. The oil does a fair amount of engine cooling as well.
Like I said just trying to give my opinion, don’t wish to sound to full on.
Sean…
yeah thought about the heat prob and presumed a oil/water cooler would suffice? what you think?
how much is a dry sump kit for a k20…as ive not looked into it price wise…i presume 2k ish?
yeah thought about the heat prob and presumed a oil/water cooler would suffice? what you think?
how much is a dry sump kit for a k20…as ive not looked into it price wise…i presume 2k ish?
The standard honda oil cooler is probably not going to cope - so you probably need to look at the solution the guys with honda + SC employ.
Not sure about the dry sump kit - the pace one I have seen used is a bit rubbish IMO so maybe just ask Ian @ clockwisemotion.co.uk.
In my experiance oil/water laminova type coolers are good, as they are quite easy to install and package and are efficient as long as they are big enough. I used the biggest one that Setrab make on my K series and to be honest it struggled. My water temps were constant at around 80 degrees, but I think because the K series I had revved quite high (9,300rpm) and the K series in general doesn’t hold that much oil (about 4 litres) it was marginal. After a 20 minute race the oil temps would be in the mid 120’s degrees C.
On the Audi engine as this seems to hold more water and more oil (about 5 litres) so far during two rolling road sessions it hasn’t gone above 100 degrees C. I guess only time will tell what it is like in a race situation.
To add to this, David Harvey with his K series engine uses the biggest dual pass laminova that Mocal do and his K revs to about 8,500 and he has no problems at all with oil temps, only seeing about 105 after a 20 minute race, so I do think it is worth spending the extra on the large Mocal unit.
Sean…
Sean,
I had the Setrab like yours on my car, Revving to 8500rpm with my DVA K series. I’ve never, EVER had an (indicated!) oil temp above 100oC, even after sessions/races of 30 minutes plus. Did you still have the holes in the bottom of the crash structure for where the air to the original oil cooler went?
Cheers
Steven
Wow, that is interesting Steven. So you used the large Setrab laminova?
No I blocked the holes in the front crash structure when I took the original oil cooler rad out.
Once I realised the Setrab laminova wasn’t working I switched to a front mounted traditional oil / air cooler rad and I fitted it to the underside of the water radiator. The rad was about half the size of the water rad and I never had any problems after that. Mind you I was still getting 110 degree oil temps, but I reckon 110 is OK.
I guess it must all be in that extra 800rpm that creates all the heat.
My Audi is having a relitive holiday only being reved to 7,800rpm.
Once I realised the Setrab laminova wasn’t working I switched to a front mounted traditional oil / air cooler rad and I fitted it to the underside of the water radiator. The rad was about half the size of the water rad and I never had any problems after that. Mind you I was still getting 110 degree oil temps, but I reckon 110 is OK.
Apologies Sean, - getting things confused! I thought that this was what you meant when you first mentioned the Setrab. This oil to air setup is the one I’ve had for the last 5 years and is why I mentioned the holes in the crash structure. I’ve never had a laminova.
Another thing I like about this setup (The original Lotus Sport setup) is that if you still have the fan on the water rad, it drags loads of air through the oil cooler rad too. Handy for those occasions where the temp are high but the cars not going anywhere
Handy for those occasions where the temp are high but the cars not going anywhere
Sounds perfect for you & Russ then, Azrael
PS No good for Knievel’s car, even though it goes nowhere, it’s always fecking freezing on Tyneside
PPS Azrael - you & Mr Kipling coming for a curry on Monday night?
Yeah I would have loved to keep my old oil cooler rad in the front. Wont fit now though as I have a bugger off great charge cooler rad sitting there instead!!!