Obviously one track mile is worth more than one road mile.
BMW say 10.
Come on guys, chins up, its sounds like the engine had a jolly good life!
Ian
Ian, do you know what temp the oil is getting to?
Ian
Approx 130C on track - it has the stock water/oil cooler which seems to be sufficent. Off the scale when a big end goes
Engine runs Motul fully synthetic, it’s checked everytime I go on track. Never caned till 80C (oil) and it was full of oil both before and after the event.
130 degrees C. Don’t you think that is to hot. I know the oil manufacturers reckon there oil will handle mental temps, but if you are measuring the temp in the sump and its 130, imagine how hot it is on those bearing faces and in the main galleries. You can see the adverse effect by looking at the oil pressure when the oil is red hot, it drops off loads when the oil is piss thin. Just my opinion of course.
The guy I run ZOO Motorsport with has a 600BHP dry sumped Sierra Cosworth track car and the oil temp has never gone over 70 degrees and this is usual on dry sumped cars. My own Escort Cosworth track car (wet sump) never went over 100 degrees.
My exige saw 121 degrees at Bruntingthorpe on Saturday and I was horrified.
While at Plans last week i saw how they sort oil temp issues on there race cars and they also now don’t see oil temps over 100 degrees.
I took the front off my car tonight and what the guys at Plans told me is sooooooooo true, there is virtually no air flow through the standard oil cooler rad. Plans basically place a square oil cooler rad directly under the water rad (about half the size of the water rad) and all there temperature woes have gone. They also haven’t seen any adverse effects to the water temp.
Sean…
Sean, I would far rather have my oil at 130C than 70C. In fact I wouldn’t give an engine any stick until it reached at least 80C. And I would be very concerned if it never got over 100C, since it wouldn’t be hot enough to evaporate any water in the oil introduced through condensation etc.
I read the oil temperature from a sender in the sump. This shows the PEAK temperature of the oil AFTER it has passed through the engine. The temperature of the oil entering the engine is lower since it has passed through the oil cooler first. When it comes to engines lower is not better! Unless you’re going to tell me you always cane the engine from cold and back off once it gets over 80C! An engine operates best within a certain range of coolant and oil temperatures. For oil I would suggest between 80C and 140C are the acceptable boundaries if you are using a high quality synthetic. Many synthetic’s btw are synthetic in name only…
If your Exige saw 120C on the track then it was BRIEFLY up to a temperature considered normal… If you don’t see 120C then you’re not trying hard enough
I had a conversation today with Neil Patterson who is the MD at Pace Products, we were chatting about a dry sump system they are putting togeteher for us for another big power Cosworth YB engine we are building. Pace are specialists in dry sump systems and supply dry sumps and oil pumps to a huge amount of race teams.
I mentioned this post to Neil and mentioned the oil temps you are seeing. To put it mildly he was very shocked that you regulaly run your car at 130 + degrees. At Pace they aim to NEVER see above 110 degrees in the sump of a wet sump application and frankly like to keep it on the low side of 100 degrees, especially in a car with a road derived engine such as ours.
The “Oil never reaching 100 degrees so therefore not evaporating any condensation” is also a bit of a myth. Look at 90% of road cars that tootle to the shops or take the kids to school, or amble down the motorway at 80 mph at probably no more than 3,000 rpm, does there oil ever reach 100 degrees, I think not!!! I have an E30 M3 that I use as my every day car and occasionaly on track and it has an oil temp gauge that has NEVER got to 100 degrees, and I reckon the boys at BMW know what they are doing.
I am not having a go mate, far from it, I am just trying to pass on my opinion and stuff. I don’t want people thinking there oil temp being 140 degrees is a good thing when in the opinion of an Industry leader in the subject (Neil at PACE) it most definitly is not!!!
Out of interest where did you get the information that these high temps were OK. I would be interested to read that information as I am always open to new thinking and ideas and stuff.
Sean…
Sean/Simon, as you say a lot of engines never get up to temperature, but by your own admission they don’t get over 3,000rpm either so are hardly being caned. Manufacturers realise this and you will find most modern engines are fitted with water/oil coolers. This is a misnomer since they are actually oil warmers. Once up to temperature the oil is always going to be hotter than the coolant since no heat exchanger is perfect. If your coolant is 90C then your oil will generally be hotter (depending on engine load and airflow around the sump).
Let me turn the question around, what exactly is wrong about an oil temperature of 130C? The primary source of cooling for the head and block is not the oil but the coolant. The primary job of engine oil is lubrication. If my coolant temp was 130C then yes I�d be very worried! If the oil maintains its viscosity rating and a good synthetic certainly does, then I don’t see the problem - remember I am measuring the peak oil temp in the sump, before it passes through the oil cooler. 130C on the track is the upper limit of what I consider comfortable. If the engine ran any hotter I would fit a larger oil cooler.
My understanding of thermal efficiency is based on the equation that efficiency % = (T1-T2/T1) x 100. Where T1 is the hot source and T2 the cold source. It follows the greater the difference between the two the higher the efficiency. We can�t do a lot about T2, but we should allow T1 to be as high as the materials/oil can withstand. I don�t know where you got your information on F1 oil and coolant temperatures. But as I understand it, they generally run coolant at 115C and oil at 110C � 115C into the engine and 140C to 150C out. This would make sense given that you would get;
- Increased engine efficiency and
- Less drag since you would minimize the size of the oil/water radiators. This is particularly important since this drag is not contributing to the down force of the car. But is robbing the car of aerodynamic efficiency thereby limiting acceleration and speed.
Engine designers do all they can to get the engine up to operating temperature as quickly as possible. Since the engine is more efficient when hot than cold. That is why we have a thermostat and oil �warmers�. Modern engines also use lower viscosity oils. Partly because of tighter tolerances and also because they reduce pumping and frictional losses which in turn increases the efficiently of the engine. If you�re not allowing your oil to reach sufficient temperature then it may remain too viscous to correctly lubricate the engine and rob the engine of power. Oil viscosity btw is measured at 100C. I would have thought if 70C was a desirable oil temp it would be measured at that.
Like you Sean I’m always open to the views of others and if you can provide a well reasoned opposing view I’m interested to hear it. You never stop learning.
I agree with everything you have stated. I agree, modern cars have oil warmers to bring them up to temperature quicker etc and that an engine will run more efficiently when at its optimum operating temperature.
I think the only thing we don�t actually agree on is what this optimum temperature, from the oil�s point of view is.
I am not an engine designer, but I have built a few in my time and my business partners engines have won 11 national short oval championships over the years. I only ever like commenting on things if I have first hand practical experience of it and I have seen a fair few scorched cranks and main bearing caps in my time to know that oil can get too hot and it has adverse effects to the internal bearing faces.
As I mentioned I chatted with Neil Patterson from Pace Products, whom I would state is very much an authority on the subject of engine lubrication. They supply lubrication components and expertise to TWR, Prodrive, Cosworth, Ilmor, TVR, Sauber, Benetton, Lotus, Morgan, & Aero 8 and to be honest if he told me that over 110 degrees was too hot for our types of engines then frankly even if I didn�t have my own first hand knowledge I would believe him.
To add a comment about the oil temp being at its peak temperature when in the sump, in my experience this is not the case. The oil temp on the bearing faces when it is spread very thin is huge. We have measured oil temperature from the main oil gallery that flows from the pump along to the crank journals and again the temperature of the oil here far exceeds the temperature in the sump. Mind you I guess with the relative lack of air around our sumps the temp of the oil in the sump is going to be higher than normal.
I agree with your constantly learning stuff comment as well. Today I learnt that Prawns and Brie don�t go well together on the same sandwich!!!
Sean…
Ianwilson
Much of what you say is absolutely right, just a bit on the high side. No I had a long coversation about this with one of the aerodynamicists at Williams just a few days ago and I can confirm to you that the oil operating temp on inlet to the head is 90 to 100 deg. In fact they have installed another oil cooler this year especially to help the head oil temps. There are many factors at work but the oil is doing a very important job taking heat out of the engine AS WELL as the coolant. Part of the risk is seeing to many high temp cycles in the head which is subjected to the combustion temps too. Put simply the ally alloy does not like 100+ deg temps because it ages prematurely and faster at higher temps . 130/140 will cause any alloy any quench to age quickly ie the head to go soft - anneal which will cause distortion and gasket failure . It is the inadequacy of the Ks plumbing in the Lotus that has caused this unreliability issue.
Simon
Strange that you say that considering that I was speaking to one o the guys who designed the BMW V10 engine… the input oil temp is 110-112 and the output is 140ish and the water temp is 115. So yet again you are speaking bullshit. No wonder nobody listens to you…
So, let’s see, so far we have some that are of the idea of lower temps in oil being better and some that think higher are better.
Now you bring the new BMW authority saying that he designed the emgine to run at high temps.
Hmmmm…
Sorry, I will have to go with the lower temps.
After all even though extracting heat from an engine is getting rid of potential power, most aluminum alloys deteriorate with higher temps, threfore the need to keep the temps relatively cool.
The BMW enine must be made of a super alloy to be running the water at 115 DegC !
PS - just because you take sides with a thory or another there is no need to get personal (again).
BTW, between those who listen to Simon there are some very knowledgeable and respected guys, not just internet people.
The point also to note about the BMW F1 engine running such high temps is that it all gets thrown in the bin after to races. This came up in the chat with my man from PACE. He clearly specified “Engines like ours” i.e. road derived engines that have been souped up a bit.
Sean…
I did try to make it clear that my oil temp is 130C as measured in the sump NOT in the head. Sean, oil temperature is higher through the bearing�s and that applies to every engine but we don’t measure it there. This is why it�s important to have your oil up to temperature and to be using the correct grade of oil. If your oil is to cold it will be to viscous and will cause big problems when trying to force it through the bearings. Hot oil at the correct viscosity will flow much better thereby achieving a much higher flow rate through the bearings and the higher the flow rate the more heat removed. Oil that is not up to temp will overheat through the bearings - but you may not notice it since the temperature will be masked by it mixing with the oil flow from the head when it returns to the sump. What you may see is high oil pressure but the higher the pressure the lower the flow rate. Meaning that the oil takes longer to pass through the bearings. Not only does the oil take longer and thereby pickup more heat but because of the increased viscosity it is also generating its own heat due to the higher pressure required to force it through.
I also made the point that the primary job of oil is lubrication - I presumed that people would read into this that it has a secondary function of cooling. Since my coolant runs at around 87C, I would presume there is no problem with the head getting to hot? Remember that the oil is well below 130C when it reaches the head. The bigger the temperature difference between the coolant and oil as it passes through the oil cooler the more efficient it is at removing heat (points to equation in previous post). So the oil leaving the cooler would be significantly less than 130C and it fact would be loosing more heat as it passed through the head since the head in a way is a water/oil cooler in its own right.
This all boils down to how hot is to hot, and how cold is to cold. 70C is to cold and most people would agree with this. 130C is at the high end of where I�m comfortable but I would in all honestly be more worried if it was 70C.
If people want to move this debate along then please post a reasoned technical explanation rather than so and so said x y z. Not having a go, but an opinion without a factual foundation is just hearsay and won�t move the debate on.
Congrats on your past success btw Sean, I would hope that driver talent rather than oil temp was responsible
I�ll leave the F1 debate to those with contacts in the industry � but unless an F1 engineer posts something up I doubt it will be resolved…
Randy
Why did you have to do that ?.. this seemed to be a reasonable debate with some differing opinions and then you made a personal attack and spoiled it all…
BTW did the BM engineer say they were working with those temps by design or simply because its what they had to tolerate ?
Maybe I�m being too harsh but don�t really think so? I just get fed up of Simon E constantly putting everyone else down, it seems that he thinks he is the only person in the world who knows about engines but then continues to regurgitate duff information.
Simon � how have I bitten off too much? All I did was correct one of your mistakes�
Randy, I do think you went a bit too far there.
One of the things I like best about exiges.com is that on the whole we’re a very friendly, helpful bunch. This site suffers remarkable little from trolling, big egos, etc compared with other Lotus sites.
I’m not asking you to agree with Simon, but can you at least accept that when he disagrees with people he does it with the best of intentions, and in a civil manner?
Simon’s taken a lot of abuse on this site. More than anybody else I can think of, but he still comes back and tries to help. I for one believe that is to be applauded.
Randy, I do think you went a bit too far there.
One of the things I like best about exiges.com is that on the whole we’re a very friendly, helpful bunch. This site suffers remarkable little from trolling, big egos, etc compared with other Lotus sites.
I’m not asking you to agree with Simon, but can you at least accept that when he disagrees with people he does it with the best of intentions, and in a civil manner?Simon’s taken a lot of abuse on this site. More than anybody else I can think of, but he still comes back and tries to help. I for one believe that is to be applauded.
I agree that it is great how helpful and friendly the people here are. I wouldn’t agree that Simon is one of them though and I don’t thinks his post come across as well intentioned of particularly civil. Don’t suppose you have noticed him having a go at Steve B on SELOC for know good reason a couple of days ago?
This all boils down to how hot is to hot, and how cold is to cold. 70C is to cold and most people would agree with this. 130C is at the high end of where I�m comfortable but I would in all honestly be more worried if it was 70C.
If people want to move this debate along then please post a reasoned technical explanation rather than so and so said x y z.
Again, I think we are both saying the same things, the only difference of opinion is what temperature range is acceptable. Like your 140 degrees, when I mentioned 70 degrees I was talking about the lowest level I have seen. In my opinion an acceptable oil temperature range is 85 degrees to 100 degrees, but again I state this is my opinion that I have arrived at through my experiance with various engines over time.
However when you mention “rather than so and so said x y z.” I don’t think there is a problem listening to other experianced people. PACE are world wide leaders in there field and I have known Neil the MD for a number of years. He has probably forgotten more about engine lubrication and cooling than I will ever know.
We have to listen to other people as none of us know it all.
Good luck with your new engine matey and perhaps one day soon you can show me round SPA!!
Sean…
Sean 130 not 140! Sorry if I came across the wrong way with the xyz comment. What I meant by it was I want to know the technical reason behind Neil’s comments. Not because I don’t believe him but because I want to understand his reasoning so I can add to my own limited knowledge. I’m sure everyone reading this thread would as well.
LOT is doing a day at Spa on the 3rd of October - see you there?
I agree that it is great how helpful and friendly the people here are. I wouldn’t agree that Simon is one of them though and I don’t thinks his post come across as well intentioned of particularly civil. Don’t suppose you have noticed him having a go at Steve B on SELOC for know good reason a couple of days ago?
I have to say I am in total agreement with Brendan on this, but its really amazing people can interpret the same postings with 180degree opinions… or am i being naive?
I personally cannot believe how anyone can have a go at KingK for what he has tried to do and share with this group. Even if you don’t agree with any of it… it should be objectively challenged or questioned with at least some diplomacy, if you can’t simply quietly disbelieve.
Anyway, i’m also off that you forced a good debate offline… and i missed out on its conclusion.
Further, KingK may not bother coming back this time which I, for one, would bitterly regret…
LOT is doing a day at Spa on the 3rd of October - see you there?
I will certainly try to make that one!! SPA is one of the tracks I have always wanted to do.