Is it possible to remove all the rubbish from this thread (ie. starting when KingK posted) and lock it before it gets deleted? Useful info that deserves to be in the right place.
Just copy all the rest to “The Muppet Show” so we can all have a laugh.
Thanks.
My effort is to build enough Ks to a decent enough standard to change that perception and beat the na and sc hondas on track with engines that prove that the vhpd/scuffham experiance was entirely down to botched engine building.
simon
Simon
I genuinely have no doubt that you are capable of building an extremely good engine, based upon the K series design. What I can’t get my head around is how you can satisfy any demand over say 5 engines per annum (my figure based upon the number of engines you have reputedly been working on for the past 3 years, & the number which appear to be in use - please feel free to indicate the number of engines you anticipate you can build each year, assuming your parts supply is now sorted), unless you are confident that others can buy the relevant parts, & build the engines themselves.
I also think your oft quoted cost comparisons between your efforts & the alternative Honda/Audi conversions is both inaccurate & misleading. I say misleading because you ignore the fact that the conversion costs also include other pricey items (if purchased individually & suitable for any type of engine) such as a 6 speed gearbox, ECU, alternator, starter motor, engine loom, exhaust manifold, baffled sump etc.
The “weight aspects” (ie figures being quoted) are of little or no significance in the real world of road or track driving, nor in my opinion the level of racing which “our guys” are involved in - driver skill is a much more important factor.
I would also like to mention the “reliabilty” issues. I think that we are all agreed that the K series engines, as fitted to the Exige & Elise as original equipment, were prone to unfortunate reliability issues, & also underperformance in terms of power output(bhp & torque). This in turn has led to the steadily growing market for conversions. As far as I am aware, there is not a single “conversion” customer who is not more than satisfied with the end product. As with all things mechanical, there are bound to be the odd failure, but in the grand scheme of things these have paled into insignificance when compared to what was happening (& continues to occur) before the conversions were available. Until a reasonable number (pick a figure) of your engines are installed in either Exiges or Elises, & have been subject to similar usages to those in conversions, then reliability cannot be proven. Please don’t misundertand that, I’m not doubting that your engines will be reliable, just saying that the reliability needs to be demonstrated.
To everyone who reads this:
Hopefully any further discussion by ALL parties will be kept on a civil level.If we all just stand back, take a deep breath, I’m sure it can be agreed that there is no need for personal insults - we can’t change what has gone before, but it’s in everyone’s best interests to move forward without slinging mud at one another.
I have recently converted my S1 Elise with the Link-Up Honda conversion.
I put the car on the cornerweight scales both before and after.
Here are the results.
Weights Pre-Honda (kg)
LF - 133.0
LR - 220.5
RF - 149.5
RR - 216.0Rear - 436.5 (61%)
Left - 353.5 (49%)
Total - 719.0
Weights Post-Honda (kg)LF - 134.0
LR - 227.5
RF - 151.0
RR - 222.5Rear - 450.0 (61%)
Left - 361.5 (49%)
Total - 735.0
These were both done with a drained tank and no roof, on the same Longacre scales on a level floor. The only other difference was changing from the Janspeed Supersport exhaust to the Eliseparts 6" version. The Eliseparts exhaust is 1.2 kg heavier than the Janspeed due to it being somewhat larger. I weighed them both.
Nothing > else was changed during the conversion and nothing else removed or added so this is a true representation of the weight difference the Honda conversion makes.
HTH
Huuuuuuumn, doesn’t add up, - that’s not to say I think you are lieing - the standard accusation from dva, and Dave oz when someone disagrees with them, but the sums just don’t tally.I havn’t got a honda to weigh, but scuffham himself gave it several times on seloc as 172kg, now I don’t know exactly what that represents, but always guessed, engine, box, alternator, starter, exhaust.???
A base std K weighs 96kg with 5kg manifold, loom, alternator, starter, and a box adds 37.4kg to that plus 3.8 for the starter. If we subtract 5kg for the manifold and add 20kg for a complete exhaust, we have96 -5 = 91 +37.4 +20 + 3.8 = 152.2kg against honda wt of 172kg
so conversion addition 20kg
so the figures don’t add up??? but rather than call anyone dishonest, the only way to settle this is to get a honda and compare engines on the scales. Have to start looking for a bust one…
However you completely miss the point roadboy, because yes you have a honda, and 200/220bhp and have gained 15 or 20kg of weight over someone who has a K and 9 or 11 grand in their pocket to spend on their K.
With much less expenditure than that you not only end up with a much lighter K to widen that 15/20kg gap, you end up with more horses, more torque,and a much much nicer engine to drive, if it’s been done properly of course.
Photos of std K , tuned K, honda k20 on accurate, calibrated weight scales [not corner weight scales] to follow.
simon
So, we are saying that Dan has measured 719kg pre conversion and 735kg post conversion, therefore a gain of 16kg. However, using 3rd party derived figures there is a 19.8kg figure in mind. Therefore am I correct in thinking we are only talking about a dispute of 3.8kg between derived and measured figures?
If so, I can’t believe there can be cause for too much grief over this element of the debate. In my opinion there wouldn’t be any question of anyone lying as the exact contents of the measured engine/transmission weights, plus differences in weight of other kit elements (e.g. engine mounts, pipe runs, ECU weights, removal of carbon canister + plumbing plus kit options chosen etc) and the weighing procedure can all contribute significantly to ‘error’.
On the data supplied and as an unbiased observer, I’d be quite happy to split the difference and say an N/A Honda adds around 18kg and put that particular debate to bed unless someone else repeats the test.
Just to add to the post. Here are pics of my 1.8 litre K from Simon on my scales. The scales are accurate and the engine can be clearly seen as to what is bolted on it and what isn’t.
[image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/SeanBicknell/Erland1800weight3.jpg[/image]
[image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/SeanBicknell/Erland1800weight2.jpg[/image]
[image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/SeanBicknell/Erland1800weight1.jpg[/image]
As a comparison, my standard VHPD with Jenveys and the QED carbon airbox (the rest similiar) weighed 98kg’s on the same scales
Sean…
Just to add to the post. Here are pics of my 1.8 litre K from Simon on my scales. The scales are accurate and the engine can be clearly seen as to what is bolted on it and what isn’t.
Sean
Perhaps I’m being really thick here, but surely Dan’s post is the most sensible weight comparison, because it compares fully installed bits of kit including starter motor/alternator/air filter/exhaust manifold/wiring etc etc, & is therefore totally “real world” for the vast majority of us ie a car for both road & track.
Just to add to the post. Here are pics of my 1.8 litre K from Simon on my scales. The scales are accurate and the engine can be clearly seen as to what is bolted on it and what isn’t.
Sean
Perhaps I’m being really thick here, but surely Dan’s post is the most sensible weight comparison, because it compares fully installed bits of kit including starter motor/alternator/air filter/exhaust manifold/wiring etc etc, & is therefore totally “real world” for the vast majority of us ie a car for both road & track.
I totally agree with you mate. I was just adding those pics and the data I had in case anyone was interested.
Just to add to the post. Here are pics of my 1.8 litre K from Simon on my scales. The scales are accurate and the engine can be clearly seen as to what is bolted on it and what isn’t.
Sean
Perhaps I’m being really thick here, but surely Dan’s post is the most sensible weight comparison, because it compares fully installed bits of kit including starter motor/alternator/air filter/exhaust manifold/wiring etc etc, & is therefore totally “real world” for the vast majority of us ie a car for both road & track.
Its been gone through before and ultimately an engine on the bench is all very well (mine saw 250+bhp on a bench dyno) but its not going to give you much enjoyment there - its the overall car that matters.
Classic example is Steve Butts car - admittedly it had an excellently implemented k series but even when he had to drop back to an older engine it still went rather well.
Its the weight/distribution/curve/cascades/setup of the car you drive that matters.
edited as it sounded as though I was critising Sean for putting the weight up.
Just to add to the post. Here are pics of my 1.8 litre K from Simon on my scales. The scales are accurate and the engine can be clearly seen as to what is bolted on it and what isn’t.
Sean
Perhaps I’m being really thick here, but surely Dan’s post is the most sensible weight comparison, because it compares fully installed bits of kit including starter motor/alternator/air filter/exhaust manifold/wiring etc etc, & is therefore totally “real world” for the vast majority of us ie a car for both road & track.
I totally agree with you mate. I was just adding those pics and the data I had in case anyone was interested.
Its all to the good.
Out of interest whats the airbox made out of under the relective wrap?
Sean
Perhaps I’m being really thick here, but surely Dan’s post is the most sensible weight comparison, because it compares fully installed bits of kit including starter motor/alternator/air filter/exhaust manifold/wiring etc etc, & is therefore totally “real world” for the vast majority of us ie a car for both road & track.
I totally agree with you mate. I was just adding those pics and the data I had in case anyone was interested.
Its all to the good.
Out of interest whats the airbox made out of under the relective wrap?
Fibreglass
Its the weight/distribution/curve/cascades/setup of the car you drive that matters.
I’m not aware from anything I’ve said, that we disagree on that
Oh, you forgot “driver skill” too
Its the weight/distribution/curve/cascades/setup of the car you drive that matters.
I’m not aware from anything I’ve said, that we disagree on that
Oh, you forgot “driver skill” too
for some reason thats the one I always leave out
Since I still have my old K lying around I decicded to weigh it.
This is a complete totally standard engine & gearbox, includes all ancilliaries,mounts, the short manifold even the expansion tank.
No fluids.
As removed from an 02 S2 Elise.
Weight: 148Kg on recently calibrated scales.
I have no axe to grind, just thought people may be interested.
Sorry but I do not believe those figures!
My car gained 60Kg and thats just a fact whether people like to hear it or not. OK I have the S/C on there too but it ain’t 45Kg!
I still think its a great engine and a superb conversion so I have no axe to grind what so ever.
As far as affecting the handling - well yes it did - a lot!
Irresepective of that the car is still way faster than it was with my supposed 230HP 1.9K in it. Once we sort the handling out is will be v. quick indeed
As far as affecting the handling - well yes it did - a lot!
Racing Driver Excuse number 129 Section 3 part B “I cocked up going too fast into a corner & spun off - however I’ll blame the car, cos I’m a racing driver par excellence!”
Are you at Autosport on Friday, for a drinkie?
Sorry Kinetic,
I have (most certainly) missed it but what engine have you fitted and was the S/C standard or an add on to your engine?
Can i assume the car does not handle to well due to the increase in weight at the back/middle of the car.
This next question is open to all, do the non K engines fit within the engine bay using all the running gear from the donor engine, ie do the drive shafts mate up with the original hubs and wheels or do you need to replace these or use original drive shafts? How much work is involved in mating the engine/gearbox mounts? Are you still able to service the non K engine or do you have to take it out to change filter/cambelt etc?
Regards,
Darryl
So you drove up with an S1 with perfect handling, gave it to the convertor who delivered it back weighing 60kgs heavier and not handling at all any more?
What did they say when you complained?
What remidial geo setup was required?
Sorry but I do not believe those figures!
My car gained 60Kg and thats just a fact whether people like to hear it or not. OK I have the S/C on there too but it ain’t 45Kg!
I still think its a great engine and a superb conversion so I have no axe to grind what so ever.
As far as affecting the handling - well yes it did - a lot!
Irresepective of that the car is still way faster than it was with my supposed 230HP 1.9K in it. Once we sort the handling out is will be v. quick indeed
So you drove up with an S1 with perfect handling, gave it to the convertor who delivered it back weighing 60kgs heavier and not handling at all any more?
What did they say when you complained?
What remidial geo setup was required?
Wonder if I’m got time to nip out for a crate of beer too?
[image]http://www.snakking.com/images/products/129_CHS-POPCORN.jpg[/image]
Plans motorsport set it up so we can assume they know what they are doing.
The additional weight over the rear is very noticible infact it changes the whole handling characteristics of the car at the limit. Also affects the way the car behaves under braking.
I’m sure its something that can be resolved but as of the last time I raced the car it was still an issue.
Maybe I should get Mr Kershaw to take a look at it
So you drove up with a fully sorted car and drove off wih one that wasn’t in effect. Have you got the before and after weights? Was no other work done?
Plans motorsport set it up so we can assume they know what they are doing.
The additional weight over the rear is very noticible infact it changes the whole handling characteristics of the car at the limit. Also affects the way the car behaves under braking.
I’m sure its something that can be resolved but as of the last time I raced the car it was still an issue.
Maybe I should get Mr Kershaw to take a look at it
Just to clarify
Its a MSC conversion Honda K20A with S/C. The S/C might be 15kg at best. Only other change was Ohlins instead of Racing Dynamics. Looking at the size of that Honda gearbox it must be more than 15kg heavier than the quaiffe one that came out of the car in itself!
Rob,
Can’t get down to Autosport till Saturday unfortunately.
Racing plans are still a bit sketchy, probably a few of the LOT races (where they’re not oversubscribed). Maybe a couple of Britcar if we think the car will take it!
Just to start another argument - I notice the Honda S/C Exiges in the LOT series have to carry 30kg more than the Elise equivalents like Scuffhams! How can that be right?
I notice they are also assuming for power / weight purposes that K series elises over 1.8L are 280HP! Sounds to me like a bit of a dig at old King K
![http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/SeanBicknell/Erland1800weight3.jpg[/image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/SeanBicknell/Erland1800weight3.jpg%5B/image%5D){kind=link}
![http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/SeanBicknell/Erland1800weight2.jpg[/image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/SeanBicknell/Erland1800weight2.jpg%5B/image%5D){kind=link}
![http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/SeanBicknell/Erland1800weight1.jpg[/image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/SeanBicknell/Erland1800weight1.jpg%5B/image%5D){kind=link}
![http://www.snakking.com/images/products/129_CHS-POPCORN.jpg[/image]](http://www.snakking.com/images/products/129_CHS-POPCORN.jpg%5B/image%5D){kind=link}