Just going throught the process of upgrading my standard set up for a more track friendly bias. What would you guys recommend.
Pads
Hoses
Fluid
Discs
Bells
etc.
Thanks in advance.
Hoses first, then given the fluid needs replacing, put something decent in. Pagids next.
Disks or bigger calipers if that isn’t enough for you.
I’m running with braided lines and RS14s and don’t currently feel the need to shell out on disks or 4 pots.
Perhaps I’ll feel different when the existing disks need replacing.
Thanks for that, was thinking Pagid RS’s, Goodritch hoses and APdot 5.1. So on right track.
I dont have the hoses yet (looking for a reason to have the front clam off before I do them)
But I do have
RS19s
295/290mm AP5000 discs on Ali bells
plus brake cooling hoses
To start with just get the pads either RS19s or RS42s see how you go and add stuff if you think you needed it.
BTW 4 pots are just excessive
According to Lotus you don’t need anything doing to the brakes… Even with the power and weight my car has, the standard disks from the original S2 Elise (half the power, 200Kg less weight and skinny tyres) are well up to the job if Hethal are to be beleived…
Yes my claim is still ongoing, after 5 months and three sets of brakes… AND not one reply from Lotus about the problem… Solicitor next.
I know you feel bad about your issues with the brakes, but isn’t it easier and cheaper for you to just upsize the discs on your car?? Under �500 for bigger discs and some ducts and the problem would be solved???
I must admit that I beleive the brake for a track day car are good standard as far as manufactuers go, if you are hard on them you can fade them, but use a degree of care and they will last, but then every other track car I’ve had has had brake upgrades for hard track work, Caterham (spec’d the bigger brakes), Atom (speced the bigger brakes) 911 GT3 (never lasted 2 laps hard as standard) M3CSL (joke on track) 911GT2 (put steel discs on to get over ceramic problems) 360 CS (worked great but wouldn’t have lasted 10K miles and cost �12.5 to replace!), Noble GTO3R (ended up up sizing).
So I beleive Lotus have done enough for them to class the brakes as fit for purpose for track day use, remember on track days you aren’t expected to drive at 100% as you would with racing, hence no timing…
Simon…I thought the car had gone and you were already in legal? If not surely for the price of the first barrage of legalise, the tea and the sharp intake of breath you could have sorted the problem?
And south I’ve got to say YOU ARE expected to drive FASTER and HARDER on trackdays. Anything less would be pointless?
I was saying not as hard a racing, but yes harder and faster than you ever will on road of course!
South240R - wow, nice past history of motas
I am inclind to agree with South240R - either go ok for my use I need better brakes done - enjoy the car
Or find another car that does not need some modification for track use (good luck finding it as South240R said)
Guys, Thx for your input. Its been very helpful. Pads, Hoses and Fluid it is.
Make sure you get a quote for the work dealer tried to charge 4 hrs labour to fit the hoses and thats not including the removal of the clam!
Alright, we seem to agree that there are three types of use that affect the brakes: Road, Trackdays & Race use.
For road use the brakes are fine, I’m not arguing that.
For trackday use they appear to be marginal, as some upgrade after problems, some take it easy to reduce problems, and some have no problems at all. (Although there are also other factors, such as wheel design, brake pads and driving style to take account off)
Race use has the greatest effect, and I maintain the opinion that the brakes are unfit for this purpose. This is what can happen when these disks are used in a race:
[image]SELOC | Lotus Enthusiasts Club
There has apparently been one serious accident caused by disk failure in a race situation. I have emails from those racing these cars stating that ALL cars have had problems and are now running non standard disks.
My car is designed for RACE use, specifically to compete in the Lotus Cup Europe 2006. It should therefore be more then suitable for trackdays. And there were no upgrades available to make it better suited for this use.
In my opinion, providing a car that has a safety critical flaw such as marginal (or dangerous, depending on use) brakes is truly unacceptable.
The car has not been tested fully. It is neither Type Approved (in the as sold state) or SVA�d (a pre registration requirement for low volume vehicles). The log book (V5C) is not correct in that it represents the standard Exige on which the car was based. South240R, please check you log book. Does it state the power as 141kW or 181kW as it should be? The exhaust emissions will also be incorrect. Are you aware that The V5C has to be completely accurate and that any mis-representation would be an offence… Bet the dealer didn�t tell you that.
Getting back to the point. Yes it would be cheaper to buy a set of AP disks and solve this problem rather then the legal route, but Lotus have stated that in doing so they will invalidate the warrantee. Nice…(This also runs contrary to the finance agreement)
Does anyone know at what point a vehicle derivative should be tested? Would doubling the power but retaining the same brake disks be considered reckless? If you had done that of your own back, I�d like to bet that your insurance company would refuse to pay out in the event of an accident…
If you suspect that your car has not been fully developed, it raises other questions, what else may have been over looked or taken for granted in the build of the car that your life may depend on?
Personally, I’m taking this action because I beleive the car to be unfit for the RACE TRACK use that it was sold for. If I were to do as others have done, and just accept that goods are not meant to live up to the speific advertising, then Lotus will continue to offer below standard services and goods, right up until someone is killed as a result of a failure. Marginal safety is not acceptable in my mind, that is why I’m researching what testing should have been carried out and not just accepting the word of Lotus, then paying for better disks myself…
The 240R owners are not in the same position as myself. Lotus did not make such specific claims about the RACE use of that model. For some reason, Lotus seem to think that the 240R described as “as limited edition high performance sportscar” is the same as the Cup 240 described as “Road cars ready for track use - straight out of the box” As has been pointed out, there is a world of difference between Road & Track use.
Finally. If you have upgraded your brakes, why? Was it for track use?, did you have problems with the standard items? With the exception of vanity, any of the above reasons would indicate that the OEM equipment are not fit for purpose when it comes to either trackdays or racing… All specific claims made by Lotus as to the intended use of the Cup cars.
There has apparently been one serious accident caused by disk failure in a race situation. I have emails from those racing these cars stating that ALL cars have had problems and are now running non standard disks.
Simon, is that UK cars only??
I know that during the Lotuscup races in september 2005 (Monza, Italy) the car from my dealer (Willem van der Kooi, Lochem, Netherlands), had a racing accident due to brake failure. IIRC his brakedisks(s) frontside just cracked and so left him without brakes.
I know Lotus denied every responsibilty regarding material faults, but asked him to ship the disks for study (and discussion with the manufacturer). Can’t tell you the outcome though.
Nico
I understand what you are saying but what are Lotus saying they will invalidate on the warranty if you upgrade the discs? I’ve never had a problem with any manufactuer over upgrading discs, they just will not replace the disc or pads under warranty?
One question about you car, which Lotus might use as wiggle room from your arguement, is yours a Cup 240 Road or Race version??
One question about you car, which Lotus might use as wiggle room from your arguement, is yours a Cup 240 Road or Race version??
My cars the road version. We’ve (the dealer and I) have already been down that route when Lotus said that the car wasn’t designed for track use, despite all their advertising. We asked for the upgrade from road to track use, this was meet with an awkward silence, there is no difference between the two versions when it comes to brakes or anything that may effect the braking performance…
I understand what you are saying but what are Lotus saying they will invalidate on the warranty if you upgrade the discs? I’ve never had a problem with any manufactuer over upgrading discs, they just will not replace the disc or pads under warranty?
That maybe the case, but why should I accept any erosion of my warrantee, and fork out even more money to make fix a brand new car? You wouldn’t expect this from any other manufacture and I see no reason why I should accept it.
There has apparently been one serious accident caused by disk failure in a race situation. I have emails from those racing these cars stating that ALL cars have had problems and are now running non standard disks.
Simon, is that UK cars only??
I know that during the Lotuscup races in september 2005 (Monza, Italy) the car from my dealer (Willem van der Kooi, Lochem, Netherlands), had a racing accident due to brake failure. IIRC his brakedisks(s) frontside just cracked and so left him without brakes.I know Lotus denied every responsibilty regarding material faults, but asked him to ship the disks for study (and discussion with the manufacturer). Can’t tell you the outcome though.
Nico
No, this was one of the Europe Cup race series cars. The only comparable race series in the UK is the MESC. As far as I know ALL the Exiges there are running after market disks like those from AP or Alcon.
Not trying to argue, but yes I would expect it from all other manufacturers. Porsche have no brakes that will take hard track use out of the box including cars like the GT3 RS and GT2, BMW M3CSL?? Sold as a track day car, brake useless in one lap, Mitz Evo all need brake upgrades for track use.
Agreed they don’t offer factory upgrades at Lotus but the car will manage trackday use if you only do a couple of hot laps and then a cooling lap etc. More than other cars I’ve owned and on the 240R it will manage 5 laps before any fade occurs, even at Donnington.
I guess to me it seems strange to trash a whole car over something I’d expect from years of racing and track day use in a wide variety of cars. When I raced classics (C and E type Jags) a huge part of the skill of racing was driving within the capabilities of the brakes on the car. Give me any works race car and I’ll guarntee it is possible to trash the brakes if you want to, it’s the same as being able to overheat tyres, driving style makes a huge difference.
Why not adjust your driving style to accomodate the factory brakes or just upgrade the discs and be done with it and just enjoy the car?
Out of interest what do you think you can buy that will not suffer any brake issues out of the box?
Agreed they don’t offer factory upgrades at Lotus but the car will manage trackday use if you only do a couple of hot laps and then a cooling lap etc. More than other cars I’ve owned and on the 240R it will manage 5 laps before any fade occurs, even at Donnington.
But my cars designed to compete in a 100 mile race!!
Anyway, I am keeping my seasons short, possably 8-10 laps at most (about the length of a clubman race…), that includes the warm up and cool down laps. After 3 seasons like that, with 30-40 mins in between, I’m getting excessive pad transfer causing the heavey vibrations.
I fully understand what your saying about driving within the limits of the car and the brakes in particular. But, I did 20 trackdays in my S2 111S with the same brake set up, same tyres & Nitron suspension. No problems what so ever. Now I’ve got an extra 83hp and possably 100Kg+, so driving within the limits of the brakes means that the extra performance this car has to offer is totally wasted. Only one reason for this, the brakes can’t cope with the extra power and weight this car has, so a more suitable system should have been fitted in the first place.
Out of interest what do you think you can buy that will not suffer any brake issues out of the box?
Caterham. Never had this problem with my last one. The new Elise S would probably fare better at half the price. It is lighter, with 100hp less and skinny tyres. BUT IT STILL HAS THE SAME DISKS!
Infact
the car will manage trackday use if you only do a couple of hot laps and then a cooling lap etc.
My company car would manage this (Mazda 626) deosn’t make it a track focused car let alone a race car.
I’ve no wish to argue with anyone over this either (with the exception of Lotus themselves). If you are happy that you can only expect 5 laps at a time from your �40K sportscar, then I’m pleased you happy. Personally, I expected more from a �45K car designed for racing, and 100 mile races at that.