AP 3000 or 5000 DIsks ?

General General Lotus Talk
1

why do most people fit 5000 disks when 3000 are lighter ?

I am not sure which to get now.

2

As quoted by Bruh la on the current “brake upgrade” thread:

[color:“blue”] The thicker ap discs (5000 series) are heavier and have proportionally less cooling. This makes them less able to be used on track rather than more. The 3000 series discs made of a higher quality material allowing the walls to be thinner and the cooling vanes to be wider, they are also therefore lighter. This means they are better for track/race use but will wear out sooner [/color]

Perhaps cost is a factor too

3

so if 3000 are better why do most fit 5000’s ?

4

Perhaps cost is a factor too

HTH

Dan@JPS

5

HTH = hand to hand
or
Hope this helps

you have me there.

Most people who spend on there Lotus for track can spend from 5k to 20k so I doubt a disk which cost �50 more will stop people buying it if its better for track use.

There must be another reason either that or no one has looked into it enough and people just buy what the first person buys who says its good. Happens all the time on forums.

I know the 5000 spec disk will be more stable for long races but I do track days with only 8 or 10 laps at a time so would the 3000 spec disk be a better bet as it would also save me 4.4 KG’s of unsprung weight.

6

I know the 5000 spec disk will be more stable for long races but I do track days with only 8 or 10 laps at a time so would the 3000 spec disk be a better bet as it would also save me 4.4 KG’s of unsprung weight.

Surely, only you can answer that one! They both do the job of stopping you. One costs more, it also lasts a shorter time, but is lighter. It’s your money…make your own mind up , & do what YOU want to do - easy

7

Most people who spend on there Lotus for track can spend from 5k to 20k so I doubt a disk which cost �50 more will stop people buying it if its better for track use.

A bit of an over-generalisation there I think. �50 per disc x 4 = �200 a set; and who knows how many extra sets you would go through?


There must be another reason either that or no one has looked into it enough and people just buy what the first person buys who says its good. Happens all the time on forums.

Might have something to do with the commercial availability of the parts, especially the bells?

I know the 5000 spec disk will be more stable for long races but I do track days with only 8 or 10 laps at a time so would the 3000 spec disk be a better bet as it would also save me 4.4 KG’s of unsprung weight.

Which spec of each disc are you comparing?

8

i thought these were the two specs in 295mm

CP5000-510/511 (5.4kg, 24 vane)
CP3580-2894/2895 (4.3kg, 48 vane)

I can get bells made up no problem if I get 10 sets done at once and i am sure i could sell 9 other sets of bells so no problems there and quite cheap as it happens.

9

i thought these were the two specs in 295mm

CP5000-510/511 (5.4kg, 24 vane)
CP3580-2894/2895 (4.3kg, 48 vane)

I agree the whole thing is very confusing, at least to me:

CP5000-510/1CG8 25.4mm 24 Vane x 9.3mm Air Gap but there are 8 other specs of the CP5000 disc listed on the AP website.

Ventilated Brake Disc 25.4mm thick x 48 vane CP3580-2894/95 has a 14mm airgap; or

there is Ventilated Brake Disc 25.4mm thick x 48 vane CP4348-894/95 with a 9mm airgap

Note that the 5000 series have a smaller swept face area than the other two by dint of the fact they they are 9mm larger on the eye diameter.

Also all these discs are only 25.4mm thick. Lotus standard ones are 26mm with a service minimum of 24.9mm. If you keep to this service minimum with AP then you are getting only half the working thickness.

When will AP add its J hook face design to these discs?

10

I paid 159 pounds plus VAT each for my 295mm 5000 series discs. After they gave up the ghost i paid 269 pounds plus VAT each for 304mm 3000 series discs. So it does add up.

Due to problems of getting a TUV approval for non std set ups i now have a set of brand new 304mm discs and bells for sale. They were mounted on the car, drove to the TUV (30km) and driven home and removed. All in around 800 pounds worth if anyone is interested.

11

i thought these were the two specs in 295mm

CP5000-510/511 (5.4kg, 24 vane)
CP3580-2894/2895 (4.3kg, 48 vane)

I can get bells made up no problem if I get 10 sets done at once and i am sure i could sell 9 other sets of bells so no problems there and quite cheap as it happens.

You would think so … but in the end most people dont want to pay 1200 quid for new discs …

Also make sure you use the right Alumninium HE 15 or HE30 and hard anodise it.

As far as discs are concerned I did a lot of research and the best is the most expensive one that lasts the least time - ie has the maximum cooling gap.

Alcon do an exact replacement for the AP3000 version and are generally available quicker than AP …

See http://www.exiges.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=60999&page=2&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

12

Andy

followed that link to see the pic on your car - did yo uever get around to taking some better photos?

It looks like there is an unswept area on the disc face adjacent to the bell is that correct?

Comparing the eye diameter of the various discs:

Alcon 189mm
3000 193mm
5000 204mm

might explain why that is. I would be interested to know whether the 5000 series actually have the opposite, ie, pad overhang?

13

Steve

Well the important dimension for the bell fitting is the same - 164mm - the diameter of the bell is 192 ( as made ) so matches the AP 3000 - and the Alcon disc leaving about 10mm on the pad sweep ( when the pad is flush with the outside diameter of 295.)

When you use the same bell on a 5000 series you have a gap which can be seen on some pictures of 5000 series ( 204-192 ).

If you duct air into the centre ( ala Uldis ) that gap allows air to escape …

I’ll take some pictures and post them up -

14

Well the important dimension for the bell fitting is the same - 164mm - the diameter of the bell is 192 ( as made ) so matches the AP 3000 - and the Alcon disc leaving about 10mm on the pad sweep ( when the pad is flush with the outside diameter of 295.)

Andy of the 3 disks I thought the Alcons with the larger potential swept surface area were at a definite advantage. I was just wondering if if you were using the maximum size of pad avaiable for the caliper?


When you use the same bell on a 5000 series you have a gap which can be seen on some pictures of 5000 series ( 204-192 ).

I don’t understand what you are saying? Can you point me to any photos?


If you duct air into the centre ( ala Uldis ) that gap allows air to escape …

Doesn’t the air travel up the vanes from the centre?


I’ll take some pictures and post them up -

excellent - thanks

15

Steve

Maximum pad is used - this was my prototype measurements

[image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AndrewDovey/d1.jpg[/image]

[image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AndrewDovey/d2.jpg[/image]

You have to consider maximum pad wear and so the fact the metal backing of the pad is 3mm away from bell means actually you have something like 10mm “ring” not in contact as the pad material is approx 7mm back from the edge of the backing.

As you can see the 192 of the bell is really the maximum you can go … so if the “hole” in the disc - the eye diameter is greater then you will see a gap - look on eliseparts web site for the AP disk setup to see what I mean. So the 204 of the 5000 series doesnt mean less pad contact but it means you have a 204-192 = 12/2 =6mm gap

Yes the air should enter the centre and get expelled outwards, thats why I agree with Uldis about cooling area but then you need to feed it with cold air like he has done - my next mod for sure. So gaps would reduce the effciecy a little I guess …

HTH