So who’s going to get one?
15k for 45bhp!!!
Interestingly mine shouldn’t be tooo far off that for a lot less… should by rights be more reliable too.
So who’s going to get one?
I knew that one day you would be pining for the ‘K’!!!
Interestingly mine shouldn’t be tooo far off that for a lot less… should by rights be more reliable too.
Talking to DVA, yrp I reckon you should be up about 220+ with your spec… Graham has nearly that from his!!!
Bearing in mind it cost not far off that figure for an absolutely standard 177ps VHPD when they first came out is it really that appallingly expensive?
I would suspect that if the money spent originally developing the VHPD had gone down this sort of route instead, we’d all have been a lot happier.
I’ve had a(Totally reliable) DVA engine for years now and I’m extremely greatful as without the likes of him the places you can go to for a K series of these sort of outputs are not only few and far between but more expensive too.
Mild rant over
Bearing in mind it cost not far off that figure for an absolutely standard 177ps VHPD when they first came out is it really that appallingly expensive?
I would suspect that if the money spent originally developing the VHPD had gone down this sort of route instead, we’d all have been a lot happier.
I’ve had a(Totally reliable) DVA engine for years now and I’m extremely greatful as without the likes of him the places you can go to for a K series of these sort of outputs are not only few and far between but more expensive too.
Mild rant over
Your engine - is that the one in the race car? How many miles has it done between rebuilds, & what was involved in the rebuild(s)? IIRC DVA rebuilt it during 2007? If you mean your road/trackday Exige engine, what useage/mileage to date etc?
The point here, mate, is that I think most people consider “reliable” to mean well in excess of 30K miles of road use, with say 20-30 trackdays included.
Not being argumentative, just trying to compare apples with apples
I take it you have already opened one of what surely must be a great many tins of christmas biccies
I take it you have already opened one of what surely must be a great many tins of christmas biccies
Nah, but it’s interesting though to learn of the experiences/costs of those running K series engines of 220bhp & above. TBH I can’t recall hearing of any (>220bhp)which meet my arbitary “reliable” criteria of >30K miles & 20-30 trackdays, installed in either a roadgoing, or pure race Exige/Elise. Does anyone have info on Skeggsy’s, which has proved reliable in racecar form?
Without a shadow of doubt, it really would have been great to have been able to run a K with >250bhp, which was both reliable & cost effective, but…
Just to re-iterate, this thread is not a wind up, just an opportunity (presented by the PTP engine) to see how far things have actually progressed for the K over the past 3 or 4 years, in terms of output/cost/reliability. This information is widely, & openly available for the alternatives, so why not have the same for the K, without resorting to the bunfights of the past?
As an originality fan, i’d like to see the K be proven. A reliable 220bhp (with improved torque) in an original S1 would be a great car*.
I admire the Honda installs, especially the quality stuff turned out by the edwards boyz (Steve’s on Sat was looking fab ), but for originality i’d like to see the K retained with a good reputation
\
- where’s Uldis when you need him?
- where’s Uldis when you need him?
Over the past 3 or 4 months I’ve asked numerous Jocks from the Lotus Community (incl. Roxsteady) if they’d heard from/seen Uldis. Unfortunately it seems that he’s been “absent” for a couple of years, although I recall that he was very busy with work on his house, & he then injured himself, which prevented him from driving his Exige for quite some time.
I’m sure that we all send him our regards, & hopefully he’ll see this, & be in touch
Your point is interesting Rob…
So,are there any S/C Hondas out there as yet that have met the 30K 20-30 track day comparison??? Clearly these produce 280 + BHP that the K will never get too!
However, the ‘standard’ Honda is 197 BHP… but I am sure that most with maps, induction and exhaust tweeks are running circa 215 to 230 bhp… a direct comparative power level to the ‘modern’ K’s such as DVA turns out.
So, again using the same criteria, how many of these N/A Hondas have met this level of reliability?
I think it is really great that the ‘K’ seems to be enjoying new levels of reliability with power outputs circa 220 bhp that is comparable to the N/A Hondas. And from what I can tell they are easily a match for these in terms of usable power and lap times around the track. In terms of cost this is being achieved ‘reasonably’ with rebuild attention to detail on getting the bottom end right/balanced, combined with a flowed head and some wilder cams etc!
All this whilst maintaining the ‘original’ set-up of the S1 Exige. ( and yes perhaps it is a shame that a Honda unit was not matched to the Elise from day one!!!)
HOWEVER, Going up another 15-20 bhp to 235 BHP as per the PTP offering you have found is of course another financial story!
Anyway, thats my two pence worth in a IMHO way
Pete
TBH I can’t think of any s/c Honda to have met the “criteria” as yet (perhaps Tut’s car?), however there are many n/a Hondas that have done over 20K miles plus 20-30 trackdays - my own included. Probably the most “tested” n/a Honda has been Neil McKean’s old car, which he also extensively raced in LOTRDC in 2007, whilst driving from Scotland to the circuit & back (incl Spa).
On the subject of costs, it’s no secret that a turnkey n/a Honda conversion is going to cost up to �10000 (for engine/6spd gearbox/ECU+map/all ancilliaries/exhaust manifold/silencer/labour), & will produce the best part of 220bhp. How much does a K turnkey upgrade, from 177/190 to 220bhp, cost? ie engine internals/ECU+map/clutch/exhaust manifold/silencer/labour(are new throttle bodies required also?)
I genuinely don’t know the answer to the K costs, Pete, as I’ve never seen them published for a complete turnkey job (& that’s what I’m interested in)*. Like you (& many others) I do think it’s great that the K seems to be able to now get a fair crack of the whip, so let’s see/hear about some real world 220bhp examples, with real world costings in Elise/Exige applications (From what I can gather tuned Ks in Caterhams appear to have been more “reliable” to date, than those in the Elise/Exige - is this a fair observation?)
- Most peeps with a tuned K (ie ignoring the Lotus 190 upgrade) seem quite handy with spanners, so appear to have done some/much of the work themselves, but for the mechanically inept like me, it’s the turnkey costs which tell the true story.
As an aside, from what I recall, now that the Audi turnkey conversions are done by Steve Guglielmi, a “basic” (ie 250bhp) job is around the �12K mark - is this accurate???
I’m sure that we all send him our regards, & hopefully he’ll see this, & be in touch
Definitely. And Roxx. It would be good to have them both posting here again
I thought it was widely accepted that 280bhp from a 1.8 was now the norm in K series tuning ?
There are apparently dozens of cars out there running this spec after all having been run in very carefully.
Oh, and did I mention that I have 14 honda engines here in my back garden that have all failed and blown up in spectacular fashion?
/KingK mode off.
Your engine - is that the one in the race car? How many miles has it done between rebuilds, & what was involved in the rebuild(s)? IIRC DVA rebuilt it during 2007? If you mean your road/trackday Exige engine, what useage/mileage to date etc?
The point here, mate, is that I think most people consider “reliable” to mean well in excess of 30K miles of road use, with say 20-30 trackdays included.
Not being argumentative, just trying to compare apples with apples
Hi Rob, fair points and well made. I knew you weren’t trying to stir anything up other than genuine questions.
Yes it’s my race engine, and it’s been rebuilt twice since I had Dave build it. I’ve never had reason to suspect any form of fault with it but horror stories still pervade the world of the K and I take the opportunity at the end of a season to guard against these and give it a refresh - So mainly a new set of big end bearings,gaskets and through bolts each time.
I’ve never gone off mileage or hours use or waited for an issue to cause me to do this, merely the convenience of doing it at the end of the season rather than the inconvenience of doing it mid-season if you see what I’m getting at.
It’s tricky to compare reliability of an engine used for racing with a road going one, not only from the point of the duty cycles involved but with the somewhat quicker development of all things motorsport, new things come along a little more often. For instance if some new wonder cams etc came into existence that gave you power gains everywhere I’d probably try them - doesn’t mean the old ones are rubbish or worn out and that the engine’s unreliable, though it still ends up in bits.
As far as the 2 litre Ks go, I don’t know of a single person with one in a roadcar whether it’s a Scholar, VGK, PTP, Judd or (dare I use the words KingK!) and would love to hear the views of anyone who has.
I do however know of at least 2 with DVA engines the same as mine in Caterham Sevens, but only one of which I’ve had chance to talk with. IIRC he was up to about 15k trouble free miles and did 15-20 trackdays a year BUT that was with a strict 8000rpm rev limit on track and 7500 on the road.
Lastly to compare apples for you under your 30k miles + 20/30 trackdays requirement - Is the K series even now as reliable as a Honda K20a? I have no proof to suggest so.
That, Rob is about as good a reply as I can come up with!
Steve
A perfect, honest response, Steve, & thanks for taking my Q’s in the way intended.
As a matter of interest, have the big end bearings/through bolts shown signs of needing replacement whenever you’ve stripped the engine down? Did Dave build it in 2006 then, rather than 2007 (tempus fugit!)?
If you recall, I did 36K miles with my K series (strengthening refresh @ 25K, although only “needed” piston rings/clutch), including 30 odd trackdays. I’m sure others have had similar experiences, & I’m even more sure that a DVA engine would improve on that, as well as providing a much more satisfying driving experience!
PS I think Russ’s original n/a Honda engine clocked up >20K miles, & was well used on track too!
PS I think Russ’s original n/a Honda engine clocked up >20K miles, & was well used on track too!
Dad the clock was showing 33k when I did the valve at Snett - my fault - and it had around 500 miles on it when I got it. I reckon it did tens of thousands of hard road/track day followed by a few thousand race miles. And I used to use the rev limiter as an indication to change up for most of those track miles.
Glad to see you back in the land of the living, Racing Sod
I think Jonnys (BAT) car had done a ridiculous number of miles, virtually all on track. He absolutely battered it when he drove it as well. The engine didnt break but he did have problems with his wiring. IIRC he said the engine had been buzzed to over 9K-10K on a number of occasions as well.