But we’re talking about cast-in iron liners, and that’s what other people call them.
Anyhow, it just proves to be a subject on its own, not that Simon can’t get the technical details straight, because neither johnboy, you or me can either…
Right… but how can a “cast in iron liner” be cast into an ally block…
But we’re talking about > cast-in iron liners> , and that’s what other people call them.
Anyhow, it just proves to be a subject on its own, not that Simon can’t get the technical details straight, because neither johnboy, you or me can either…
just because a few google refs show up some dodgy information does not make it true.
There are no liners made of iron (cast in or pressed in) in the k20. So yo ucan talk about cast-in iron liners all your like but there are some specific claims made in such a statement - that they are cast into the block and that they are iron. Please pop round and i will show you a k20 and you are welcome to point at the iron liners in it.
You guys didn’t get me.
I couldn’t give a flying to$$ about the liners on the Honda!
I thought I mentioned that although they are called like that (they could be called chocolate cookie crumbles for all I care, I always thought of Nikasil and you referred to them as MMC), in racing they are still bored out and replaced by stronger liners.
And Simon was just pointing out that.
Could we get back to the K subject now?
I am still waiting for the bloody Eliseparts replacement remote thermostat! (because the one I bought 3 months ago leaked while pressurizing it to blled the system)
Engine’s been ready to run since Tuesday and now it seems that the Royal Mail lost the package!
Sigh, another delay.
MMC is not iron. sigh.
Na, that’s the cool stuff to come out of the Cold War that they make missile casings out of.
Ian
Whilst its good and interesting that you pass on the results of your gathering of K series tuning information, you put a certain spin into your writing which suggests that much of the work is your idea - when perhaps it isn’t. As demonstrated above.
Steve
I think you may have inadvertantly highlighted something to me with this comment… something i have never been able to fathom till now (call me slow if you like )
I don’t know Simon any better than I know you or any of the other commentators who have popped up here (usually not in support of Simon i have to say… ) But… I DO NOT agree with what you say here, in fact I think what you say in this comment may highlight what makes the difference between those who have come across as having strong grievence with Simons writings, and those that feel it makes sense (like me… no numpty but also with NO experience of engine building). That is those with lots of experience who seem to think that Simon has popped up to claim eevrything as his idea… I personally have never read this into anything he has said - in fact quite the opposite… he makes lots and lots of statements to indicate that what he says comes from very many discussions with very many people who have much experience in their own right.
And now you have said this and I look at all those who have made strong -ve representations - mostly they have one thing in common… and that is they have lots and lots of practical experience of trying to make the K work beyond its ‘normal’ workhorse limits.
For total novices like me, Simon has brought a whole new dimension to the subject, that wasn’t there before, but he never gave me the impression that it was all original thought… just that he had, from bitter experience, decided to investigate deeper and more thoroughly than anyone had been able (or willing) to do before, and for that I have to thank him…
Mind you… we will see how Uldis engine goes… i’m not expecting miracles but I really hope it provides a robust and reliable engine with a healthy dose of power and torque.
MMC is not iron. sigh.
nah, that’s my local Lotus dealer isn’t it ??
Whilst its good and interesting that you pass on the results of your gathering of K series tuning information, you put a certain spin into your writing which suggests that much of the work is your idea - when perhaps it isn’t. As demonstrated above.
Steve
I think you may have inadvertantly highlighted something to me with this comment… something i have never been able to fathom till now (call me slow if you like )
I don’t know Simon any better than I know you or any of the other commentators who have popped up here (usually not in support of Simon i have to say… ) But… I DO NOT agree with what you say here, in fact I think what you say in this comment may highlight what makes the difference between those who have come across as having strong grievence with Simons writings, and those that feel it makes sense (like me… no numpty but also with NO experience of engine building). That is those with lots of experience who seem to think that Simon has popped up to claim eevrything as his idea… I personally have > never > read this into anything he has said - in fact quite the opposite… he makes lots and lots of statements to indicate that what he says comes from very many discussions with very many people who have much experience in their own right.
And now you have said this and I look at all those who have made strong -ve representations - mostly they have one thing in common… and that is they have lots and lots of practical experience of trying to make the K work beyond its ‘normal’ workhorse limits.
For total novices like me, Simon has brought a whole new dimension to the subject, that wasn’t there before, but he > never > gave me the impression that it was all original thought… just that he had, from bitter experience, decided to investigate deeper and more thoroughly than anyone had been able (or willing) to do before, and for that I have to thank him…
Mind you… we will see how Uldis engine goes… i’m not expecting miracles but I really hope it provides a robust and reliable engine with a healthy dose of power and torque.
It seems like you don’t read other forums, or haven’t been doign so for very long.
Most of the what Simon mentions is just good engine building practise, but applied to the K series.
For example, tungsten insertion of crankshafts has existed for decades, its just recently (about 10 months ago) that any interest has emeraged to get the K series crank inserted.
As for providing K series tuning information to the public. I and others have been doing this way before Simon started his postings, or even paying others to build his engines.
I’ve been posting to the www.se7ens.net mailing list, the British Cars BBS and more recently the SELOC website for a large number of years.
I’ve openly discussed everything that I have tried in getting more power from the K, and helped others with free advice on what I have bought and what has worked for me, and what didn’t. Either by personal email or postings. I’ve even organised bulk buys of tuning parts to help myslef and others save some money.
I learnt 99% of what I know about tuning the K from Dave Andrews and Dave Walker - Dave Andrews’ kengine.htm page on his personal website is a mine of inforamtion regarding tuning the K series on a limited budget, and was placed to there for DIY tuners to use to save being ripped off by tuning houses (who at the time of the site’s creation were charging large amounts for comparatively little gain).
And to your dislike of my post. Go and re-read Simon’s post to me. He clearly stated that if it wasn’t for him I wouldn’t have met Steve Smith and used Steve’s tungsten inserted crank. Also in the same paragraph, he claimed to have developed a grind of camshaft that I was now using.
These statements of his really annoyed me - I know for a fact that he had nothing to do with the 1444 camshaft development, and played no part in introducing me to the idea of the tungsten inserted crank, or Steve Smith.
So, please don’t take offence at my posting correcting Simon who was claiming to have developed something for me, or helped me when he had no involvement.
Take some time to do some research yourself into the K series, and look further than this forum - you will find that the truth is out there.
I too hope that Uldis has success with his engine and that it stays together.
I also hope that some more people benefit from the information Simon is making public, but that they don’t just use this, but research further.
The examples given of his mis-quoting of the Honda engines would ring alarm bells if I was planning on following his advice, and I would want to look further than this thread.
SteveB
They don’t know what the smoke was yet. Apparently the bell housing is a potential weak spot though and they are considering re-designing it for next year.
The engine failures they have had are not acceptable and its a real shame they can’t put something more reliable in. FFS you can get 240bhp out of a standard UK Honda with throttle bodies and I’m sure it would be bloody reliable so long as you added a dry sump and adequate cooling.
Randy
Any news on where the smoke was coming from ?
Also
Simon, not had an answer to this yet:
Are you saying that the engine never came out of the car except on these 3 occasions ?
I hear that the head on Gavan’s and the BTCC cars is something a bit special and not a Rover manufactured part…
Bernard
I think people have moved off course here. Simon originally made the statements about the K series and a whole group of people jumped on him basically saying its rubbish and he doesnt know what hes talking about. Now ive had a few coversations with Simon and steveB via email and its obvious their enthusiasm and knowledge about the k engine. And i think Steves 220bhp engine is built mainly how Simon was saying , though i think Steve go to this stage by his own research and development. Steves engine seems very reliable and i know he was very impressed with it. Dont know the exact costs but im guessing it costs half of the 11k a jdm honda engine costs to fit to the elise, to match the performance. Wasnt that the whole point of it??? To show that �10k or �11k for the honda transplant was not necessary??? Uldis what bhp and torque are you expecting from your engine?
And i think Steves 220bhp engine is built mainly how Simon was saying , though i think Steve go to this stage by his own research and development. Steves engine seems very reliable and i know he was very impressed with it. Dont know the exact costs but im guessing it costs half of the 11k a jdm honda engine costs to fit to the elise, to match the performance. Wasnt that the whole point of it??? To show that �10k or �11k for the honda transplant was not necessary???
I think its more the case that Simon is saying how SteveB built his engine rather than SteveB building how Simon was saying.
Steve must have spent far over and above the costs of any conversion to get his engine to were it is now but thats development cost. If you were to follow what SteveB has done you are right it must be a hell of a lot cheaper than any conversion and especially a JDM honda conversion.
Reliability is a moot point really but its hard to doubt the reliability of steves engine. I have well over 10k in mine (honda) and have dropped the water out of it 3 times yet is still runs perfectly so I still think the hinda in standard trim is more reliable than a tuned k series.
My UK spec (non JDM) honda punts out 240bhp without cracking it open so to compare NASP like for like you need to put it up agains a fairly rare beast - a road going 240bhp K series.
For the record the “ovalised K20 @ jenvey” is in fact an Fc20 (out of an s2000) that lost its oil pump and picked up.
While there is value in bringing together the work of others and combining it into a single product perhaps its worth remembering “If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants”
Dont know the exact costs but im guessing it costs half of the 11k a jdm honda engine costs to fit to the elise, to match the performance. Wasnt that the whole point of it??? To show that �10k or �11k for the honda transplant was not necessary???
Just to keep this in perspective, with a view to comparing like with like
I don’t believe that the JDM Honda conversion costs quite the �10K or �11K mentioned, but accept that it could be around the �9.5K mark. But what do you get for that? Let’s see… there’s a complete engine with all ancilliaries & driveshafts, a 6 speed gearbox with LSD, a mappable ECU, installation, & a warranty ie this a complete turnkey conversion. Note: that is for a complete engine including, throttle body/inlet manifold, exhaust manifold alternator, starter motor, sensors etc etc.
Oh, & a UK spec Honda conversion costs about �1K less than the JDM, but still pushes out at least 200bhp - reliably, & capable of a lot more.
I have no gripes whatsover with those who are persevering with the Rover K series, it fact all credit to them, but it just seems to me that so much work has to be done, before it comes anywhere near the Honda (or the Audi) conversions, in terms of performance & reliability.
Just my 2 cents worth - I’m now going down the Honda (UK) route, after finding myself a complete unit with only 698 miles under its belt from new
…after finding myself a complete unit with only 698 miles under its belt from new
You spent ages hanging around outside the Honda garage before chasing the shiniest Civic Type-R you spotted to the nearest set of traffic lights and ramming them hard up the rear didn’t you!
Ian
I had visions of him spreading oil on the first island it came to.
LOL chaps
Makes you wonder how the poor sod in the Isle of Man felt after writing off the car so early in its life
PS How’s the red wine now, Russ?
I was thinking the same thing Ian, who did he run off the road
[quote] and ramming them hard up the rear didn’t you! [quote]
I knew you were desperate to get your hands on a Honda lump, but have you no morals Rob
SteveB27
You said a lot in there that isn’t really what i was inferring. It would be counter productive for me to attempt to answer point-by-point…but anyway the essence is the same and we’re not going to cure it here… so i’m happy to let it be…
Although I have to reiterate, from where i sit… we could do with helpful opinion to many of our queries and for me Simon has given us that. I’m not stupid and if I have doubts about his claims I don’t feel the need to jump down his throat. There’s no point pushing opinion about this cost or that cost because for each of us there is a little more to it than just the cost and its also unfair to turn it all into a pissing contest.
You don’t need to defend your position I don’t think but you could, if you chose… contribute entirely positively instead of trying to shoot Simon down… no ??
All Simon appears to be doing as far as I can see is help us - he is also clearly a big big fan of the Rover K series, I like that and he has brought stuff to my attention in a very clear and concise way. So what if its ‘old regurgitated news’ and contrary to your own feelings I do not think Simon touts this stuff as all his own work but then… that’s an individual opinion. That’s not what you and a few others seem to see and from that observation and your comment above (that prompted my earlier post) it suddenly struck me that maybe that’s the point??.. these guys all have lots of experience and maybe for some odd reason they feel a threat or they feel owed something? so attack Simon… because that most certainly is how i see it and I don’t know ANY of you. Maybe that’s not the case, and i picked you all up wrong… but I simply cannot fathom why this group of people springs up here and submits derision and aggresion rather than simply try to add value.
I don’t understand that…
There is a certain symmetry with the Honda conversion discussion it’s gotta make an individual wonder wtf is going on…
Also, i read dva’s site and i like it… i also read a whole lot more than you give me credit for… like i said i’m no expert but i ain’t a dobber either.
I don’t want to fall out with you - you are far more value to me than i will EVER be to you so it’s me that’s got something to lose but hey… it’s only a fuken car… give peace a chance…
the last time i checked the uk honda engine conversion had gone down from �10k to �9750, and the jdm conversion was quoted at a �1000 more. Not going into the whats best arguement but if guys like Steve have got their 1.8k series to a reliable level for thousand less and the same performance then tuning the k to a higher ouput becomes a much more appealing option than it was previously. Also now would be interesting to see what the 1.9k’s and 2.0k’s could do and the reliability they offer, when tuned the right way.
Think its been planted into our head that tuning a k leads you to a lottery where your engine could blow anytime. Guys like Steve have shown that if done right this is not the case. Im sure a 1.9k could be done to put out 250bhp and probably cost only a little bit more than tuning a 1.8 from scratch.
All Simon appears to be doing as far as I can see is help us - he is also clearly a big big fan of the Rover K series, I like that and he has brought stuff to my attention in a very clear and concise way. So what if its ‘old regurgitated news’ and contrary to your own feelings > I do not think Simon touts this stuff as all his own work > but then… that’s an individual opinion. That’s not what you and a few others seem to see and from that observation and your comment above (that prompted my earlier post) it suddenly struck me that maybe that’s the point??.. these guys all have lots of experience and maybe for some odd reason they feel a threat or they feel owed something? so attack Simon… because that most certainly is how i see it and I don’t know ANY of you. Maybe that’s not the case, and i picked you all up wrong… but I simply cannot fathom why this group of people springs up here and submits derision and aggresion rather than simply try to add value.
I think I have said this already on this thread but I couldn’t be arsed to go back through so apologise for the DPM…
If we all agree/thank/cheer Simon for his contributions then what we have is a completely unbalanced argument. Simon might have some valid points but he also spouts a fair amount of bollocks and if people aren’t told that it can lead to expensive mistakes.