I find it hard to believe that nobody can feel a difference in handling. Especially you Randy, who are a racer AFAIK.
And another thing I find hard to believe is the extra power. Yes, Russell’s Exige pulled about a car length on the straight at Donington, but that’s about it. And I got that under braking.
Maybe your engine wasn’t so healthy to start with and therefore you feel the change more?
The only Honda’s car that I’ve seen going quicker was a 340R, but then a well driven std one should be faster than an Exige anyway because of the weight.
Could it be that you guys like the rush when the iVTEC comes in? I particularly don’t find it so appealing (ever since learning to appreciate the “rush less” delivery of my Ducati 916SP)
And one thing I’ve seen is when Honda’d cars are looked from the back, they appear to be moving a lot.
I think finally it will work very well, but maybe you’re just needing some more suspension development
Can’t wait to follow you and Mike with my car and see how it looks from behind. Are you going to be at Cadwell on the 23rd Sept?
I find it hard to believe that nobody can feel a difference in handling. Especially you Randy, who are a racer AFAIK.
And another thing I find hard to believe is the extra power. Yes, Russell’s Exige pulled about a car length on the straight at Donington, but that’s about it. And I got that under braking.
Maybe your engine wasn’t so healthy to start with and therefore you feel the change more?
The only Honda’s car that I’ve seen going quicker was a 340R, but then a well driven std one should be faster than an Exige anyway because of the weight.
Could it be that you guys like the rush when the iVTEC comes in? I particularly don’t find it so appealing (ever since learning to appreciate the “rush less” delivery of my Ducati 916SP)
And one thing I’ve seen is when Honda’d cars are looked from the back, they appear to be moving a lot.
I think finally it will work very well, but maybe you’re just needing some more suspension development
Can’t wait to follow you and Mike with my car and see how it looks from behind. Are you going to be at Cadwell on the 23rd Sept?
I didn’t say that I couldn’t feel any difference in handling because I certainly can. I just suspect that the biggest factor is the extra power causing it to sit down at the rear harder and faster. The standard exige setup is too soft and under damped and the Honda amplifies this by some margin. The changes in weight distribution have got to effect it too. It really now needs Nitrons so I can dial it in to how it should be. I would say that anyone considering going the Honda route needs to be prepared to fork out on Nitrons at some stage too.
The difference in power is very pronounced, it may not have that much more peak power but the power is linear and the gear ratios make the most of it. That counts for so much more than peak power. There wasn’t anything wrong with my K and I’m sure anyone who has passengered with me will confirm that.
It’s very difficult to compare power outputs of cars on track. Speed out of the corners is the most important thing when getting down the following straight so power output can easily be disguised by a slow driver.
I’ve driven down plenty of my local roads with the Honda now and it really beats the sh*t out of the Rover IMHO. If you don’t like the Vtec characteristics then maybe it isn’t for you but I’d encourage you to give it a go.
One downside I have noticed is a massive increase in fuel consumption when you’re thrashing it. Really is a thirsty beast.
The difference in power is very pronounced, it may not have that much more peak power but the power is linear and the gear ratios make the most of it. That counts for so much more than peak power.
Randy
I am almost nervous posting this because i defo don’t want you to think i’m getting into a slanging match so hope you take this as a positive enquiry and in the intersts of cool debate… can you explain to me what you mean by power delivery is linear… ?? there is no way the iVTEC power delivery can be described as linear - in my understanding of the terminology if you are using it to compare with our K. Other than the fact that ALL engines have a linear relationship between power/torque and revs, but i don’t think this is what you mean… ?? is it?
Rox, if you don’t mind I’ll jump in here. The iVTEC engagement is very smooth. There is a change in induction noise, but I wouldn’t say there is a kick in your pants. I had the good fortune to meet with Bernard at Brunty at the weekend. We both had a go at driving each others cars (and we both agreed we prefer our own cars at the end of it ). Firstly I now have no doubt that the Audi will murder the Honda in a straight line!! But by the same token this is one car whose power delivery is not linear! Put your foot down and half a second later you are faced with a literal mountain of torque, followed a few seconds later by either a gear change or lifting off. Whereas the Honda is a rev head, put your foot down and watch the rev counter spool up.
I can’t wait to see a few on track to see how people cope with managing such a massive amount of torque that comes on so quickly. The Audi is not for inexperienced drivers, a wet (or dry) roundabout and a heavy right foot will end in tears.
Back to the topic, having driven an Exige I find the power delivery of the Honda more linear than an Exige. The Exige seems to have very little midrange, where as the Honda feels more balanced, pulling well from 0 - 8600rpm. You really should try and prise the keys of someone and have a test drive. More than welcome to try mine when we meet up again. My car does tend to move around a lot at the rear on corner exit, but that’s because it’s developing more torque lower down so the car is squirming around trying to put it on the road.
I think with the iVTEC engines having such a flat torque curve, with ony a slight rise at VTEC changeover, there is much more pick up low down the rev range than with the older VTEC system. I think this was what is implied. You do still notice a definate change in accelreation, noise and willingness to rev once into VTEC as well (well you do in my Civic and that weighs 500kg more than an exige)
I remember hearing that part of the VTEC setup was to give that kick in the pants, it can be setup so it’s 100% seamless but as far as marketing goes people thougt more of it if they could feel that “whallop!” in the pants
I dunno if the iVTEC is better…
But at the end of the day, let’s say with a 2.0l K Series and a K20, cams to get 220bhp from both are exactly the same, just the K20 has some wee ones for lower down… But “in theory” driving fast you should only be using the higher lift cams no?
Yes there is a change in acceleration, but it’s not that pronounced. The old VTEC as opposed to iVTEC engines were much more abrupt.
With the new mapping i.e. variable VTEC engagement point you hardly ever drop out of VTEC on the track (comes in at 4,200rpm @ WOT). The advantage with the dual cam layout is that you can be much more aggressive with the high cam since you don’t need to worry about idle. This is probably why it produces better midrange than a similar output K series.
As regards the torque delivery of the audi, we have control over the boost pressure according to accelerator position, via the Emerald…
So we can get varying amounts of power according to whether we ‘floor’ it, or ‘feather’ it, and all points in between…
I suppose it comes down to not using the accelerator pedal as an on off switch, but rather as one component of the ‘balanced controls’ driving method…
Of course when demonstrating the audi, it is so tempting to use full power all the time, but perhaps we should have shown how linear and controllable it can be…
I accept that the faster the car the greater the demands on the driver, and I would encourage anyone with that sort of power to do some proper training, e.g. Walshy, or maybe Don Palmer’s wet experience!!
Hi Mike, nice to meet you, I presume it was you with Bernard I was chatting with (have a terrible memory for faces and names)…
Why I think it will be interesting on the track is the fact you have to be very careful with your right foot. More so than with a K - Honda or Rover. I was astounded with the outright grunt of Bernard’s car - I doubt I’ve ever been in anything that has shoved me into the back of my seat with so much force!
In the hands of someone who can control it I think it’s pretty much untouchable.
and thanks to gasman and randy for the answers as well
i guess you need to get me out in your cars eh… … is there some form of an overlap in the cam ‘changeover’ to allow it to be smooth ? I drove a civic type R and from memory i seem to remember feeling a noticeable extra urge at the iVTEC point, i assumed that this would be more noticeable in the lighter elises/exiges and although i agree that mid-range power/torque is lacking in my rover it is still feels more linear than i’d have thought iVTEC would feel… you guys need to show me…
My 190bhp K-series is superb.It pulls from 1500revs with good mid-range from 4000.I ran it in super carefully so that could be the answer.I also have a Ducati 748SPS which I ran in carefully and in 7000miles have had no problems-it runs superbly.
Thanks for the blast in your car. Love the noise and it really shifts when the VTEC cuts in. I would have to agree it’s probably a better all day track day car. Still prefer mine though
When you drove it my car was a bit over sensitive to throttle, the tall gearing of old diesel box dulled the throttle response somewhat and I nver found it a problem. But as you know I changed the gearbox a few weeks back and its way too sensitive now. Moving between 10% and 25% throttle nearly doubles the torque. I need to get it over to Emerald for a remap. As Mike says you can change the response to throttle with a table in the ECU. It really ought to be much more linear than it is at the moment. But 1/2 hour on the rollers and road would sort it. I’m just being careful at the moment
Pity you never got a drive in Steve Maggs car, his is a lot quicker than mine. It’s got the 210 BHP engine as a base (mine was only a 150) so you can run more boost and more ignition advance as its a stronger engine and has a lower compression ratio. It’s mental. !!
Bernard, I’m intrigued why you think the Honda would make a better trackday car. The throttle response and lack of noise were the only two areas I felt could be improved upon. Heat doesn’t appear to be an issue. The throttle response is obviously solvable. In which case I would imagine the Audi would lap quicker. Of course a trackday is not about lap times. I think it’s an almost spiritual feeling of developing a relationship between car and driver. The sound of the engine, the brakes and suspension all working in harmony, when it all comes together you never want to come in.
Anyway enough waffling from me. Looking forward to seeing some of your creations on track.
I think the Audi should be able to lap quicker, but as you hinted at, it’s not all about lap times is it ? On the track the Audi seeme a bit muted and maybe not as involving as a NA car revving to say 8500. Maybe I should take the silencer off !!
But on the road the Audi is fantastic, bags of power at any revs. Much more driveable, I think so anyway
That’s the whole thing with turbo’s tho’, will NEVER sound as a good a NA’s as the turbo is stopping most of the noise and get’s that “muted” sounds
But the real thing I love about NA’s (have driven turbo’s and SC’s, not Elise’s but various rice machinery ) is the induction noise, you just don’t get it with forced induction, the gulping, gasping for air, that roar as you open the throttle and a nice big vacume suck’s everything in (including little children, sheep etc )!
I said I’d never go forced indution again, one big reason is that NA’s are so much easier to work on, so little plumming, forced indution stuff the just tubes and pipes and funky solinoids “EVERYWHERE”
But good to see all the variations about and people haveing a reasoned debate about the differences
Personally I quite like the way my Elise sounds. It’s not that its has no noise but it definitely doesn’t scream I’m a modified monster either!
The latter also adds to the surprise factor when you overtake TVR’s or Porsches as they don’t hear you coming and they are completely baffled as to how something that sounds almost normal can be so quick.
I think the Audi should be able to lap quicker, but as you hinted at, it’s not all about lap times is it ? On the track the Audi seeme a bit muted and maybe not as involving as a NA car revving to say 8500. Maybe I should take the silencer off !!
But on the road the Audi is fantastic, bags of power at any revs. Much more driveable, I think so anyway
Bernard
Depends on your defination of drivability I suppose. In your car you can stick it in 5th and leave it there. But in the Honda you do need to prod the gear stick on the odd occasion. But I think even you were a little surprised at the tractability. But it’s not in the same league, make that Solar system as the Audi
Mark if you like induction roar the Honda has it in spades as Bernard will attest to.
