Brakes Upgrade advice...

The Oily Bits S2 Specific Topics
21

There has been one person Lotus had to buy out of his 240r car because he was having issues with the brakes.

22

The cup 255 comes from Lotus with std rear calipers but with rs14s’

The piston sizes on the LMS set up are optimized to keep the same brake balance with std rears.

Eliseparts do the same thing or they also do a bigger piston sized caliper that is matched to using the old fronts on the rear, if you know what i mean.

Which must mean you loose the handbrake? Or do you have two calipers on the rear?

The cup 255 comes from Lotus with std rear calipers but with rs14s’

With the eliseparts set up using the old front caliper you loose the handbrake or they do there own rear caliper that allows you to keep it.

23

Just to add another angle…

I have MMC discs and pads allround and i can stand on mine continually for an entire track day without so much as murmer from my brakes. They are still locking up at the end of a full on 35 min session in the middle of a hot summers day. I use all 230 BHP to obtain high breaking speeds and have no problems…WHY ?

My other question is ; how many of the cars out there with brake problems utalise cooling ducts to the discs and calipers ?

Maybe it’s a Heat issue, that could be cured cheaply !!

24

Maybe it’s a Heat issue, that could be cured cheaply !!

but diagnose this correctly first with some empirical evidence before fitting ducting and over-cooling the brakes! Discs should run at stable temps.

25

Maybe it’s a Heat issue, that could be cured cheaply !!

but diagnose this correctly first with some empirical
evidence before fitting ducting and over-cooling the brakes! Discs should run at stable temps.

Just an idle thought but does having the oil coolers right in front of the wheels create a problem?

26

Maybe it’s a Heat issue, that could be cured cheaply !!

but diagnose this correctly first with some empirical
evidence before fitting ducting and over-cooling the brakes! Discs should run at stable temps.

Just an idle thought but does having the oil coolers right in front of the wheels create a problem?

Never thought of that but you may have something there. Its hot air that ends up in the wheel arch, that could definately effect the brake temps, and would explain why set ups that work on the s1 seem to cause problems on the s2.

27

My car has the oil coolers in the front, may be that has helped the brake fade problem on the mountain passes, given that the engine is high rev’ing for most of that stretch.

28

Just an idle thought but does having the oil coolers right in front of the wheels create a problem?

Don’t forget that the plastic wheel arch liner goes between the oil cooler & the wheel/hub. I find it very hard to believe that any heat from the cooler would affect the brakes.

[image]http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/ryallm/oil%20cooler%20fitting/DSC02125.jpg[/image]

I still maintain that the standard calipers are up to the job (unless you’re racing) - ask anyone who was at Donington last April (GP Circuit incl. Melbourne Loop) & saw Gav Kershaw & Matt Becker thrashing the factory cars all day long. The pads on Gav’s car were replaced during the lunch break, but they weren’t new in the first place as it was the demo car. Assuming braided hoses are already installed, fade will be the result of “standard fluid & pads”, & those should be upgraded before even contemplating fitting 4 pot calipers & big disks.

29

Gavin is a far better driver than me, he will be alot smoother, but Donnington if fairly free flowing as a circuit and won’t have anywhere near as much presure on the brake as an Alpine road.

At Donnington the brakes will just be used to take speed off a car for a bend. on a pass it will be taking speed off a car going full wack to a near standstill time and time again. Going down hill will also have a lot of the cars weight continuously behind it more so than at Donnington.

I would agree that Pads, Fluid, discs would be a good starting point for tracks like Donnington.

But I bet that Gavin has to keep the car standard, other wise people would say that Lotus agrees that the car is not up to the job unless bits are upgraded.

I would lay money on if you asked Gavin if he would prefer the big brakes on track over the standard ones he would say, to right I would.

30

Snapper

If you drove on a mountain road like Gavan drives on track, you’d be dead. Mountain road driving is obviously hard on the brakes, but note that I said the GP circuit at Donington, plus Gav & Matt were out in their cars all day (except for passenger change overs & lunch break).

Of course, wearing his racing driver hat Gav would prefer 4 pot front calipers - that’s my point. He would also tell you that the standard calipers are up to the job for the non s/c Exige & Exige S. Cup cars etc have an extra 20-40 bhp, & I don’t think there’s any doubt that 4 pots are the order of the day.

Anyway, mate, you want the 4 pot brakes, so get them bought & bollox to what anyone else thinks at this stage. How will a test ride in the UK prove anything, surely by your own criteria you need the mountain passes to do that? You won’t know if they “alone” make any difference to your mountain driving, cos when they’re fitted, you’ll also change the fluid & pads.

31

I agree that you will change the pads and fluids. But under EU laws there are rules that govern the amount you can change the pads, fluids and discs. That is why a lot of them say track only.

Changing the calipers as well gets around this issue.

32

Snapper

If you drove on a mountain road like Gavan drives on track, you’d be dead.

  • sounds like the way he’s driving them at present might not make much difference!

Mountain road driving is obviously hard on the brakes

but remember just like making financial investments, mountains can go up as well as down.

33

the 4 pot kit weighs less :slight_smile:

34

Changing the calipers as well gets around this issue.

Eh, why?

The reason some pads are labelled for “track use only” is because they need heat to make them work! The makers don’t want some numpty driving on the road, without giving the brakes a few prods when setting off from cold.

35

the 4 pot kit weighs less > :slight_smile: >

And taking off the roof will save even more weight

36

I agree that you will change the pads and fluids. But under EU laws there are rules that govern the amount you can change the pads, fluids and discs. That is why a lot of them say track only.

Changing the calipers as well gets around this issue.

Do you have a source for that info?

37

From what I was told there is regulations regarding what you can do to the upgrading/downloading of brake pads/discs over the manufactures specification with the manufactures fitted system. The pads will have a rating stamp on them like tyres.

The techy chap I was speaking to from Ap Racing stand at the Autosport show was telling me about this. In full detail, part numbers, EU Regulation Numbers Ect.

He said that they could advise a number of pads/discs/and Fluids which would be good on the track that would do what I need for the passes. But if I had an incident and my insurance found out I could have major problems with my claim because they are not road legal.

He said that I could try certain upgrades if I wished that would be road legal. But he did say you will only fully know if they will work when you get out there on those roads.

Apparently if you change the calipers this negates the eu regs. Don’t ask me why because I was not having the conversation about the EU. I was more interested in other things.

Also changing the number of pots also helps with the heat management of the brakes. This is a big key factor in the issues I am trying to address.

The reason I am asking for advice from people who have already done this upgrade is to double check look for confirmation that the info I have received matches with their experience as best as it can be compared with what I wish to achieve before spending money.

Apparently the pads that would best suit my given requirements are Ferodo Pads DS2500. there was a big explanation as to why that I would not be able to repeat.

38

The position is, that for a manufacturer to fit brakes (calipers/pads) on a production car, those parts must meet the EU Regulations (ie tested & proved to). In other words, Lotus, as a manufacturer, could not fit the 4 pots to a production car. However, Lotus Motorsport were always happy to carry out the upgrade to an already road registered production car.

I was informed 2 weeks ago that the “Lotus Big Brake Kit” is now “approved”.

39

I refrained from posting on this thread because I have an S1, and we all know how “porky” the S2’s are , therefore it might be a different case.

However, I feel we’re on to a very similar situation.

In my car, I quickly went over the specs of its brakes, and after 2 trips to the dealer and having disks and pads changed under warranty convinced myself the stock setup was just not going to do.
They told me warranty was off if I replaced to aftermarket calipers but IU still did it and after playing with some Eliseparts and Hi Spec ones, I settled in the (now unobtainable) MuttsNutts with forced ducting.

Ducting cool air and forcing it through the vanes of the disk cured all problems.
Still, for road driving you need to take care of not overcooling them so I have resorted to the very minimalist “duct tape” approach, blocking the intake, but removing the tape for dry track use.

In the AP side, be aware that there are two different types (3000 & 5000 ? somebody corect me if I’m wrong, just off the top of my head) and one of them is lighter, i.e. walls thinner. This one would be good for sprinting, but would judder again on track.
On the other hand if track use is your game, use the heavier (but thicker) ones.

In any case, the std calipers are up to the job for my 756 Kg car, not so sure for a heavier one, but you can try (I’m a crazy late braker).

Also, I have tried the Ferodo DS2500, they’re ok, but not the best, but would better go for SBS or Pagids.
I have settled now on Performance Friction’s type 92 (?, not even sure of this, but they’re not they type 1)

Will upload some pictures to photobucket and post them later.

40

HTH…

[image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/Uldis/Brake%20cooling/100-0211_IMG.jpg[/image]

[image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/Uldis/Brake%20cooling/100-0303_IMG.jpg[/image]

[image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/Uldis/Brake%20cooling/100-0305_IMG.jpg[/image]

[image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/Uldis/Brake%20cooling/100-0313_IMG.jpg[/image]

[image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/Uldis/Brake%20cooling/100-0104_IMG.jpg[/image]